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Building Soviet Units - 3/18/2014 9:33:21 AM   
Basilhare

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		I am playing the Soviet Side for the first time...still learning the game...

Q: As a Soviet player you can construct new units by using admin points, as I understand it...I do not see an option to do so...how do you build a new soviet HQ for example? Its early in the game (July '41)...perhaps I do not have enough admin points (I have 170 currently) or perhaps its too early??? Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/18/2014 11:42:54 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Search for reinforcements.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 2
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/18/2014 12:50:33 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		New on-map units may be built after a few months (or weeks) after June '41 and only with a small selection available. In 1941 the costs are prohibitive by the way. Real building (up) doesn't start until spring/summer 1942 and the rifle corps buildup is best delayed until 1943 (if you can). You can find the details in the manual. Unit destroyed before October (I think) are automatically returning for free in a few turns. First real building (up) is creating cavalry corps in december '41, divisions from brigades in april '42, and tank corps from tank brigades in the same period. Of course smaller (support) units can be built all the time, for 1 AP per unit.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 3
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/18/2014 12:54:35 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		During the summer of 41 you get a very large number of scheduled reinforcements and new HQs.  I don't think you need to build any more during that time or perhaps only a small number.  You will have other needs for your AP points anyway.  Also the cost of building new units is much higher in the early weeks of the game.

Later in 41 it will make sense to start building more units.  To do this, click on a large city such as Kiev, Orel, Kursk, Rostov, etc and then enter shift B to get the build menu.

Edit: The above applies to building new on-map units -- rifle brigades/divisions, army HQ etc. To build new support units, you click on the HQ you want and in the "assign/form" menu you can add new support units at a cost of 1 AP for each (also manpower and equipment as appropriate to the type of unit).

< Message edited by jwolf -- 3/18/2014 1:57:30 PM >

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 4
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/19/2014 12:44:45 AM   
Basilhare

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks, jwolf! this was exactly what I was looking for...

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 5
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/19/2014 3:07:12 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		@Basilhare

You don't have AP to waste in 41-42, so use it efficiently. If you are playing against a human opponent, Morvael's suggestion that you build tank corps in April 42 is premature. You can do it, if you you don't want to hold the front, but you won't have the trucks to support them then and you will have holes in your line. So build only Cavalry and Infantry and assemble them into corps as you feel you can afford to.

One other thought... You will be tempted to use AP to switch out poor HQ leaders in the 41-42 time period. My recommendation is don't do it, unless it is to take a good leader out of command to save him from experiencing "losses". You won't be doing any significant counterattacking because you have no troops to do it with anyway. Burning AP to put good leaders in control of bad troops is just wasting AP and putting your good leaders in positions where they will be penalized for "losing" battles. So use your AP to build troops, and leave your good leaders in the pool or in units where they wont get attacked in 41-42. That way you will start 43 with low negative scores on your best leaders.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 6
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/19/2014 4:31:13 PM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		Right, keep 100 useles tank brigades that use just as much trucks instead .
If the game could not handle the historical number of tank units, we could really speak of a badly designed logistical sistem .

the tank corps ads the abilty to react to bad situations very fast , no other unit is capable of burning trough 12 enemy hexes in 1942.


(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 7
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/19/2014 6:48:56 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Be careful with creating too many cavalry divs too early. Cavalry squads are expensive in armament points and in August(?) 41 there's a squad upgrade to a new type.

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 8
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/19/2014 8:25:38 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

One other thought... You will be tempted to use AP to switch out poor HQ leaders in the 41-42 time period. My recommendation is don't do it, unless it is to take a good leader out of command to save him from experiencing "losses". You won't be doing any significant counterattacking because you have no troops to do it with anyway. Burning AP to put good leaders in control of bad troops is just wasting AP and putting your good leaders in positions where they will be penalized for "losing" battles.

May be I'm wrong but as SHC I use my best leaders to defend the key areas (Leningrad, West Moscow) with my best troops. It worked several times.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 9
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/21/2014 5:58:21 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

One other thought... You will be tempted to use AP to switch out poor HQ leaders in the 41-42 time period. My recommendation is don't do it, unless it is to take a good leader out of command to save him from experiencing "losses". You won't be doing any significant counterattacking because you have no troops to do it with anyway. Burning AP to put good leaders in control of bad troops is just wasting AP and putting your good leaders in positions where they will be penalized for "losing" battles.

May be I'm wrong but as SHC I use my best leaders to defend the key areas (Leningrad, West Moscow) with my best troops. It worked several times.


Well that's what I initially thought too STEF... that is, until I understood that the game was so unrealistically biased in favor of the German side in the 41-42 time period as to make Russian attempts to defend useless. So... no, I don't see any point in even attempting to defend positions until late 42, when actual combat capable troops can be assembled. As for the use of AP to appoint good commanders to useless defences... that's just a waste... and every "loss" they experience just lowers their usefullness.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 10
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/21/2014 6:06:28 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Right, keep 100 useles tank brigades that use just as much trucks instead .
If the game could not handle the historical number of tank units, we could really speak of a badly designed logistical sistem .

the tank corps ads the abilty to react to bad situations very fast , no other unit is capable of burning trough 12 enemy hexes in 1942.



The tank brigades are only good for maintaining fortified hexes and should be used instead of wasting four AP on building fortification zones (you'll find a use for them in 43). Given the morale and combat ratings of the Russian Forces in 41 thru early 42, the only thing I can see that a Russian tank corps would be good for is surrendering in mass to German encirclement. Completely useless in the early turns of this game.

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 11
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/21/2014 6:55:08 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Right, keep 100 useles tank brigades that use just as much trucks instead .
If the game could not handle the historical number of tank units, we could really speak of a badly designed logistical sistem .

the tank corps ads the abilty to react to bad situations very fast , no other unit is capable of burning trough 12 enemy hexes in 1942.



The tank brigades are only good for maintaining fortified hexes and should be used instead of wasting four AP on building fortification zones (you'll find a use for them in 43). Given the morale and combat ratings of the Russian Forces in 41 thru early 42, the only thing I can see that a Russian tank corps would be good for is surrendering in mass to German encirclement. Completely useless in the early turns of this game.



You gotta start somewhere in building up the Russian tank forces or you'll always be playing catch up. I've found Tank Brigades useful in a reserve role (both offensively and defensively). Early Tank Corps can be effective if there are any weak exposed enemy units, Axis Allies especially. Even if sitting idle, the Tank Corps will train and build morale.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 12
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/21/2014 9:46:02 PM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Right, keep 100 useles tank brigades that use just as much trucks instead .
If the game could not handle the historical number of tank units, we could really speak of a badly designed logistical sistem .

the tank corps ads the abilty to react to bad situations very fast , no other unit is capable of burning trough 12 enemy hexes in 1942.



The tank brigades are only good for maintaining fortified hexes and should be used instead of wasting four AP on building fortification zones (you'll find a use for them in 43). Given the morale and combat ratings of the Russian Forces in 41 thru early 42, the only thing I can see that a Russian tank corps would be good for is surrendering in mass to German encirclement. Completely useless in the early turns of this game.



You gotta start somewhere in building up the Russian tank forces or you'll always be playing catch up. I've found Tank Brigades useful in a reserve role (both offensively and defensively). Early Tank Corps can be effective if there are any weak exposed enemy units, Axis Allies especially. Even if sitting idle, the Tank Corps will train and build morale.


I think building tank corps in '42 is vital - I generally spend most of my AP on cavalry divisions/corps and tank corps while using 2 rifle brigades a piece to build up rifle divisions. Given the relatively weak state of Red Army infantry in '42 it is vital to have high MP units on reserve...some 4 or 5 CV tank corps can really make a difference here.

I tend to spend very little AP in 41 on commanders or reorganization if I can help it (obviously, some spending is essential)...I will buy units even at high cost to keep myself from going over 500 and wasting APs. Winning is about developing the right mass as early as you can. Of course, you don't want to go overboard either as too much will drain manpower and leave frontline units weak.


_____________________________


(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 13
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/21/2014 10:56:41 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Right, keep 100 useles tank brigades that use just as much trucks instead .
If the game could not handle the historical number of tank units, we could really speak of a badly designed logistical sistem .

the tank corps ads the abilty to react to bad situations very fast , no other unit is capable of burning trough 12 enemy hexes in 1942.



The tank brigades are only good for maintaining fortified hexes and should be used instead of wasting four AP on building fortification zones (you'll find a use for them in 43). Given the morale and combat ratings of the Russian Forces in 41 thru early 42, the only thing I can see that a Russian tank corps would be good for is surrendering in mass to German encirclement. Completely useless in the early turns of this game.


agree with the Schmart and hfarrish, you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early. Individually they are of little value but stack 3 and you have 9-10 CV and 50MP, that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried. You have nothing else that can move through multiple ZOCs.

Also they can sit 4-5 hexes back and rested and stacked can hit an exposed Pzr division hard and run away afterwards. So that may force your opponent to ensure they are ending moves with at least 2 mobile divisions stacked - if so they are covering less ground.

its like so much else with the Red Army in 41-42, its a case of threat in being and indirect advantages that you need to leverage,

_____________________________


(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 14
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/22/2014 12:16:06 AM   
Basilhare

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41

< Message edited by Basilhare -- 3/22/2014 1:16:37 AM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 15
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/22/2014 10:27:29 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		If a soviet leader has 5 inf skil and 5 initiative , i will keep it, otherwise it has to go , sooner the better .
In 1942 it's all about corps, corps and corps, reorganization needs to be done before that.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 16
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/22/2014 6:43:59 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41


You are correct when you sense you have NO AP to waste... Do what you like with them, but as for the comments above about building Tank Corp in 42... that is the quickest way I know to get run over by the Germans.

( loki100 = "you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early... that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried.")
Do you hear that noise ? It's the riotous laughter reverberating all the way from Berlin in response to this quote.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 17
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/22/2014 8:57:41 PM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41


You are correct when you sense you have NO AP to waste... Do what you like with them, but as for the comments above about building Tank Corp in 42... that is the quickest way I know to get run over by the Germans.

( loki100 = "you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early... that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried.")
Do you hear that noise ? It's the riotous laughter reverberating all the way from Berlin in response to this quote.


Seriously dude...you are dismissing advice from some of the most experienced players on this board. Your choice, but I wouldn't advise it.

_____________________________


(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 18
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/23/2014 9:19:58 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41


You are correct when you sense you have NO AP to waste... Do what you like with them, but as for the comments above about building Tank Corp in 42... that is the quickest way I know to get run over by the Germans.

( loki100 = "you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early... that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried.")
Do you hear that noise ? It's the riotous laughter reverberating all the way from Berlin in response to this quote.


Seriously dude...you are dismissing advice from some of the most experienced players on this board. Your choice, but I wouldn't advise it.

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/23/2014 10:20:45 PM >

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 19
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/23/2014 9:41:24 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41


You are correct when you sense you have NO AP to waste... Do what you like with them, but as for the comments above about building Tank Corp in 42... that is the quickest way I know to get run over by the Germans.

( loki100 = "you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early... that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried.")
Do you hear that noise ? It's the riotous laughter reverberating all the way from Berlin in response to this quote.


Seriously dude...you are dismissing advice from some of the most experienced players on this board. Your choice, but I wouldn't advise it.

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Did you try playing the germans againt Human?

I'm clearly not the best russian player on this forum but, as I have a good knowledge of the german strengths and weaknesses, I would be happy to give you the opportunity of crushing me as SHC

Any interest?

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 20
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/23/2014 10:29:33 PM   
Blubel

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 6/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Interesting exchange...with the constant command flux, I haven't saved back to may admin points to spend anyway...at least in the summer of '41


You are correct when you sense you have NO AP to waste... Do what you like with them, but as for the comments above about building Tank Corp in 42... that is the quickest way I know to get run over by the Germans.

( loki100 = "you really are missing a key tool in 1942 by not building tank corps early... that is a combination that is vital to keep any axis player worried.")
Do you hear that noise ? It's the riotous laughter reverberating all the way from Berlin in response to this quote.


Seriously dude...you are dismissing advice from some of the most experienced players on this board. Your choice, but I wouldn't advise it.

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Did you try playing the germans againt Human?

I'm clearly not the best russian player on this forum but, as I have a good knowledge of the german strengths and weaknesses, I would be happy to give you the opportunity of crushing me as SHC

Any interest?



+1
I think the Soviet side is way too easy at the moment. I would love the chance to get utterly crushed.

< Message edited by Blubel -- 3/23/2014 11:30:00 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 21
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 12:57:28 AM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		@STEF78:

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious STEF, but you just proved my point by the results of your own AAR post vs frogmarc...

(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/24/2014 3:30:53 AM >

(in reply to Blubel)
Post #: 22
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 1:25:15 AM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		@Blubel:

When I have learned what is required to play the German side, I may take you up on your offer.

As it is now, I have only played the Russian side twice now versus Wheat, who is probably as good a German opponent as there is on this forum (although his modesty won't admit it). His excellent ability to press the German offensive in the CG by wringing maximum results out of the mechanics of the game has taught me much. He demonstrates clearly that German offensive results of the "Pelton Style" are achievable, while at the same time not overextending his advances in such a way that he avoids exposing his troops to Russian opportunity counterattacks, thereby maximizing point capture while minimizing losses and thwarting Russian Guards formation.

I have played both with Wheat in teams and the opposite side of the table against Wheat in pretty much every type of board and computer game available since 1968. I know him, his analytical capacity, and his acumen at gaming. This makes me rather certain of what the German side is capable of. I have not seen anything evidenced on the AARs that alters my opinion. In fact, most of the postings affirm it.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 23
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 8:36:47 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

@STEF78:

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious STEF, but you just proved my point by the results of your own AAR post vs frogmarc...

(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)


If your opinions are based on STEF vs frogmarch game(+ your own lost games ), then it's not the best example. No offense to frogmarc, but he is not the best player. I been playing against him and crushed him too.
I offer you a game too. It seems you have now plenty potential Soviet opponents. I hope you will accept at least one to prove your statements.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 24
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 1:05:57 PM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


(P.S.: I wonder if you used the "LVOV pocket" opening in your game with frogmarc... if so, you won that game on turn 2.)


You could try to play both sides you know , it's lot more work, but no difrent than playing without fog of war .

Lvov or no Lvov , you will end up striping the south of troops, just to rebuild the northern wing . At least it will give you a real assesment of both sides capabilities .




< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 3/24/2014 2:07:36 PM >

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 25
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 4:35:30 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
As it is now, I have only played the Russian side twice...


Sorry, but this game is so complex it takes more than two games to begin to understand even many basic elements. You haven't even tried to take the advice of some experienced players. How can you expect to improve without learning from others? Kinda defeats the purpose of boards like this...

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 26
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 5:47:39 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.


< Message edited by timmyab -- 3/24/2014 6:50:14 PM >

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 27
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 7:32:35 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.


How much money?

Preventing ths german of crossing the Dnieper is a really big challenge!

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 28
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/24/2014 8:30:29 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
How much money?

To be perfectly honest, not very much.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 29
RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/25/2014 8:44:06 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I offer you a game too.

Yes please take this offer GamesaurusRex and do an AAR, I need a laugh at the moment. My money says you don't make it across the Dnieper.



You are giving me too much credit. But it pleased my soul.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 30
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