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RE: A snapshot AAR - 3/31/2014 8:37:23 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		I would be more worried that Tim will now turn to the south. He can use Don between Boguchar and Voronezh to protecting his flank and strike south. Placing some cavalry and tank corps between Boguchar and Rostov is maybe not a bad idea. You know just in case.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 151
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/1/2014 6:47:28 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		The bridgehead over the Don is not a good news.

But as 821Bobo I think the main threat is a southern hook.

Keep and increase the pressure in the north, he will have to send reinforcements in this area.

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 152
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/2/2014 7:12:33 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		I have noted that the German Panzer and Motorized divisions look very weak. Average CV of a panzer division seems to be around 7-8, and some motorized divisions are at 2-3! I do not remember that German mobile divisions were this weak at the beginning of 1942. I am not sure this can be ascribed to heavier fighting in the mild winder, I am more inclined to believe that the recent bug fixes have resulted in heavier wear and tear on the German mobile forces. Not saying this is either good or bad, just noting the effect.

The Germans can still encircle me, but long term I am beginning tro doubt that they can sustain an offensive during 1942. I know, I may have to eat those words later. It is more an observation on game balance in general than on the current situation. How do the panzer strengths compare to your forces at the same time STEF?

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 153
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/2/2014 2:59:21 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Most of my divisions in the South are as weak as kittens, I don't know why, it might be connected with losses because of retreats from Soviet attacks which are unpreventable due to sappers and CV inflation. Two thirds of these attacks succeed and most are below 1:1 initial CV.
TOE is mostly between 30% and 60% for mobile divisions and a bit higher for the infantry.
I agree that my 42 campaign is likely to fade out rapidly, I simply haven't got the strength to hold the flanks after a breakthrough and replacements just aren't getting to where they're needed fast enough.
May even see a Stalingrad type disaster if I insist on going for it.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 4/2/2014 4:02:58 PM >

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Post #: 154
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/3/2014 8:18:03 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
TOE is mostly between 30% and 60% for mobile divisions and a bit higher for the infantry.

I think that it is the price for heavy "mild blizzard" fights

quote:


I agree that my 42 campaign is likely to fade out rapidly, I simply haven't got the strength to hold the flanks after a breakthrough and replacements just aren't getting to where they're needed fast enough.
May even see a Stalingrad type disaster if I insist on going for it.

If you loose initiative at this stage of the war, SHC will reinforce quickly and the pressure will increase dramatically

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 155
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/4/2014 1:11:31 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Most of my divisions in the South are as weak as kittens, I don't know why, it might be connected with losses because of retreats from Soviet attacks which are unpreventable due to sappers and CV inflation. Two thirds of these attacks succeed and most are below 1:1 initial CV.
TOE is mostly between 30% and 60% for mobile divisions and a bit higher for the infantry.
I agree that my 42 campaign is likely to fade out rapidly, I simply haven't got the strength to hold the flanks after a breakthrough and replacements just aren't getting to where they're needed fast enough.
May even see a Stalingrad type disaster if I insist on going for it.

With an OOB strength of 3.5M+, I'd say it a question of lack of prioritization. There has been 12 full strength Ger Inf divisions as reinforcement during May & June. That's an entire army! You might consider rotating some mobile units to get them up to strength.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 156
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/4/2014 4:44:27 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
If you loose initiative at this stage of the war, SHC will reinforce quickly and the pressure will increase dramatically

Yes I know it's s**t or bust at this stage. I'll have to go for it
quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
With an OOB strength of 3.5M+, I'd say it a question of lack of prioritization.

I have done a bit of that. 18th and 16th armies are at 80% max toe for example and some of the armor was lying idle in the Spring for just that reason. Divisions are pulled out of the line whenever possible to save them from attrition - all that sort of thing.
The main problem is that the Russians can now crush anything that you put in front of them in 42 which is very silly. 90% TOE stacked German infantry divisions in woods terrain and a three level fort? No problem - it's gone. This should not happen in 1942 (imo)
On the plus side for me, my logistics have been overly generous. Lots of fuel for the tanks and good MPs for the infantry.
For all my moaning I think this is going to be a close run thing and it's an exciting game.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 157
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/4/2014 6:13:19 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
If you loose initiative at this stage of the war, SHC will reinforce quickly and the pressure will increase dramatically

Yes I know it's s**t or bust at this stage. I'll have to go for it
quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
With an OOB strength of 3.5M+, I'd say it a question of lack of prioritization.

I have done a bit of that. 18th and 16th armies are at 80% max toe for example and some of the armor was lying idle in the Spring for just that reason. Divisions are pulled out of the line whenever possible to save them from attrition - all that sort of thing.
The main problem is that the Russians can now crush anything that you put in front of them in 42 which is very silly. 90% TOE stacked German infantry divisions in woods terrain and a three level fort? No problem - it's gone. This should not happen in 1942 (imo)
On the plus side for me, my logistics have been overly generous. Lots of fuel for the tanks and good MPs for the infantry.
For all my moaning I think this is going to be a close run thing and it's an exciting game.



ROFLMAO... this is utter rubbish. The Russians barely have sufficient forces to hold a contiguous line in 42, much less assemble a combat capable counter-attack that is anything more than an invitation to be pocketed.


(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 158
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 7:40:58 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
If you loose initiative at this stage of the war, SHC will reinforce quickly and the pressure will increase dramatically

Yes I know it's s**t or bust at this stage. I'll have to go for it
quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
With an OOB strength of 3.5M+, I'd say it a question of lack of prioritization.

I have done a bit of that. 18th and 16th armies are at 80% max toe for example and some of the armor was lying idle in the Spring for just that reason. Divisions are pulled out of the line whenever possible to save them from attrition - all that sort of thing.
The main problem is that the Russians can now crush anything that you put in front of them in 42 which is very silly. 90% TOE stacked German infantry divisions in woods terrain and a three level fort? No problem - it's gone. This should not happen in 1942 (imo)
On the plus side for me, my logistics have been overly generous. Lots of fuel for the tanks and good MPs for the infantry.
For all my moaning I think this is going to be a close run thing and it's an exciting game.



ROFLMAO... this is utter rubbish. The Russians barely have sufficient forces to hold a contiguous line in 42, much less assemble a combat capable counter-attack that is anything more than an invitation to be pocketed.



In a spirited attack under the guidance of the leading principles of Marxist Leninism the heroic units of 24th army liberate the city of Kalinin. In a twist of fate the army is commanded by Stepan Kalinin. (No idea if he is related to Mikhail Kalinin for whom the city is named).





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Post #: 159
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 7:47:22 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
The main problem is that the Russians can now crush anything that you put in front of them in 42 which is very silly. 90% TOE stacked German infantry divisions in woods terrain and a three level fort? No problem - it's gone. This should not happen in 1942 (imo)



While it is not exactly no problem, I have to concentrate forces and need a rifle corps or two, I must say I agree that the offensive capabilies of the Red Army against well fortified positions at this stage of the war seems exaggerated. It was exactly on attacks against this kind of positions that the Red Army lost tens of thousands of men to no avail in operation Mars in late 1942.

Maybe there should be some kind of mechanism to delay this kind of capabilities for the Soviets? Limitations on sapper numbers and/or capabilities? Later date for forming rifle corps?

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/5/2014 8:48:18 AM >

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 160
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 10:32:12 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Rifle Corps are overpowered compared to history due to the way they are formed. The TOE is for 5 RB, but if the player uses 3 full strength RD to form the RC, it will have 9 RB initially. The 9RB TOE starts with the 42c version.

Attackers are favoured due to the possible extra x2 CV. I think Soviet players are attacking more outside the Blizzard now compared to before since it has been shown to work. But it does cost casualties, so the challenge for the Axis is to cause enough so that the Soviets can't afford any more from any of their own attacks. Interesting dynamics.

The quality of the Soviet formations should if anything be worse in this version due to the NM training cap. I honestly thought that this change would make more of a difference than shown in this game. The 2 frogs game shows a different outcome, but I can't tell how much the training cap was a factor.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 161
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 11:14:17 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		The Kalinin battle is a good illustration of the kind of thing that is making the game fubar. Initial odds are not far off 1:3 and the Soviet leader is inferior to his German counterpart. The unit in Kalinin has every advantage and a retreat result should be extremely unlikely, maybe 20-1 or something. Basically this attack should cause mass Soviet casualties and little else.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 162
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 2:13:05 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		The initial odds against the defense value of the German unit was 1 to 3, but you have to count on that the fortification level will fall one or two levels. Even so, this was a very lucky combat, and it would normally not have succeeded. However, one has to take some chances as the Soviet. Some attacks will be bloody failures, and some will get lucky. Of my attacks in the Northern sector, three succeeded and three failed miserably. This one was the least likely to succeed I think.

As I said above, I agree that Soviet offensive capabilities seem exaggerated at this stage of the war, though I would not go so far as to call it fubar.

Below a map of Soviet advances in the Moscow sector.




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Post #: 163
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 2:22:04 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		In other developments on turn 54, the Germans make a breakthrough in a southerly direction towards the Donbass, apparently aiming for the coast. This could have been dangerous, almost cutting off two Soviet fronts. However, determined resistance by Soviet forces manage to slow the attackers down.

There was a shock army as backup to the line and also a couple of tank corps and cavalry divisions. It seems to have been just enough, but it was a close escape.

Map before Soviet moves.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/5/2014 3:22:30 PM >

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Post #: 164
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 2:54:32 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		That's an amazing breakthrough... waiting to see your response. Wondering how timmytab prepared this operation undetected?

Myself, I always go for the limited gain rather than the maximum possible when an opportunity presents.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 165
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/5/2014 3:36:24 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		It wasn't exactly undetected. I knew where the main Panzer force was, and it was one of several possible attack directions. It is hard to guard against them all, but I tried to have a defense in depth in the most likely directions. It seems I managed just barely to be strong enough in this direction, but I still didn't expect he could strike this deep through a five hexes thick carpet with a shock army as the last layer.

I will not show the map after Soviet moves yet for reasons of operational security, but I am definitely not completely off the hook, and the Germans might well bag substantial forces.



< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/5/2014 4:52:56 PM >

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 166
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/7/2014 8:34:22 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Here is a map after Soviet moves. A somewhat precipitate withdrawal and a fairly decent front is formed north of the Black Sea shore.




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Post #: 167
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/7/2014 8:37:40 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, it is not solid enough! The Germans cut right through seven hexes deep formations and reach the sea, cutting off five or six armies!

This is a disaster which I am not sure I can recover from. Possibly, the campaign was decided this turn!

Map before Soviet moves.




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Post #: 168
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 2:35:01 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I've seen something like this before.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Turn 67. September 24 1942.

1st and 4th Panzer Armies have battled their way to the suburbs of Stalingrad.

Meanwhile, 2d Panzer Army breaks through to the west, encircling Rostov to the north and south. Once the start to meneuver, the Soviet forces in the Donbass seem like an empty shell, they are falling apart. Hungarian armor break through in the north, while 11th Army makes a break in the front at Stalino. Here resistance is stubborn however, and there is no breakthrough to contact 2d Panzer Army.





(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 169
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 6:58:30 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Hehe, history tends to repeat itself. But I think Soviet recuperative Powers were greater in the game version at that time, and the German Arm shortage was biting harder. So I am not sure I will be able to recover like Gids did in that game.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 170
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 6:58:42 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		ouch, does make pushing much past the Mius in the Winter Offensive very unattractive

Is there anything you can do to take advantage that all the Axis mobile units are on one sector?

_____________________________


(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 171
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 9:13:25 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

ouch, does make pushing much past the Mius in the Winter Offensive very unattractive


Well, it was not the Winter offensive that was at fault, I should have withdrawn more. I did pull back, and I did backup my line as much as I could, but it wasn't enough. And the breakthrough was very well performed by timmyab!

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Is there anything you can do to take advantage that all the Axis mobile units are on one sector?


I am attacking wherever practicable on the rest of the front (and in some unpracticable locations to vent frustration) but even though I am succesful in pushing back the Germans a hex here and there, it will not make any difference in the short term.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 172
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 10:23:02 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

ouch, does make pushing much past the Mius in the Winter Offensive very unattractive


Well, it was not the Winter offensive that was at fault, I should have withdrawn more. I did pull back, and I did backup my line as much as I could, but it wasn't enough. And the breakthrough was very well performed by timmyab!

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Is there anything you can do to take advantage that all the Axis mobile units are on one sector?


I am attacking wherever practicable on the rest of the front (and in some unpracticable locations to vent frustration) but even though I am succesful in pushing back the Germans a hex here and there, it will not make any difference in the short term.


In long term the advantage is that the axis southern wing is geting atrited fighting for terrain that is dificult to hold .

I would start striping the soviet northern wing now for reserves, you have little to loose and it is
very hard to dislodge the germans from there .

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 4/8/2014 11:26:18 AM >

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Post #: 173
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 1:45:28 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


and in some unpracticable locations to vent frustration


Heh. I always like to see the human element at play.

Timmyab's mech units are beaten up a lot, BUT they have excellent mobility and that seems to be the key. As long as he stays close to the front he can try to pocket bits of your line, rolling from south to north and stay in pretty good supply, with high MP, all the time.

It's still very impressive that he was able to cut through your thick carpet like that. Dare I ask -- can you break open the pocket?

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 174
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/8/2014 5:03:13 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		You're badly wounded.

Maybe you should have sacrified half a dozen of Inf Div to keep the ZOC and prevent GHC Inf to move freely and attack your first line.

These armies are now lost. Time to give ground?

The best protection for SHC against pzd/mot are the major rivers because of the number of MP's required to cross.

< Message edited by STEF78 -- 4/8/2014 6:57:32 PM >

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 175
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/13/2014 5:37:12 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Here is a map of the front after Soviet moves Turn 57.

The Hitleists have continued their advance after mopping up the trapped armies at the shores of the Sea of Azov.

They have also launched a subsidiary attack south of Voronezh and once again crossed the Don, apparently to cut the railroad.




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Post #: 176
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/13/2014 5:38:23 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Losses and OOB after the recent debacles.





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Post #: 177
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/13/2014 7:01:15 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Not sure that dividing his Pzg is a good idea

If I was your opponent I would try a Pocket coming from Vornezh in the north, Vorochilovgrad from the South and closing in Boguchar

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 178
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/14/2014 2:01:36 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Not sure that dividing his Pzg is a good idea

If I was your opponent I would try a Pocket coming from Vornezh in the north, Vorochilovgrad from the South and closing in Boguchar


Agreed, but maybe Timmyab's strategy is to secure the Donets river first to hold his southern flank? Just my speculation.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 179
RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/14/2014 8:54:49 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		The Soviets persist with their interminable airbase bombing campaign. I sometimes wonder if it's a good policy.





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(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 180
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