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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/14/2014 10:22:53 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf
Agreed, but maybe Timmyab's strategy is to secure the Donets river first to hold his southern flank? Just my speculation.

The breakthrough to the coast gave me an unexpected problem because I managed to take Rostov virtually without a shot being fired, (they clearly weren't expecting us). If defended this city can be a tough nut to crack so I don't want to lose it and have to retake it the hard way. The major river line does indeed look like the best way to secure Rostov and the entire Southern flank, until the winter at least.

My cordon was fiercely attacked by the red hordes and they weren't that far away from breaking through. Even some of the isolated units made successful assaults. One of them was 1:7 I think (what?!).
Anyway it held and this pocket will yield 74 divisions, 6 corps and a couple of dozen brigades.
The total for 1942 now stands at 115 divisions, 10 corps and 65 brigades and still they keep coming. It reminds me of playing space invaders.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/15/2014 8:20:32 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

The Soviets persist with their interminable airbase bombing campaign. I sometimes wonder if it's a good policy.

Yes, the airfield bombings have resulted in some frankly disastrous results lately. They had a better exchange rate before, don't know why but it seems to have changed.

Sometimes I do a couple of airfield attacks in the hope of reducing interceptions of air attacks supporting ground attacks, but this policy seems to be very expensive.

BTW the worst one in the screenshot was due to me fumble-fingering and missing to press shift, resulting in an unwanted unescorted bomber raid. I put it down to confusion and mismanagement in the VVS. Somebody will go to Siberia for this!

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/15/2014 9:23:38 AM >

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Post #: 182

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/17/2014 10:26:09 PM

timmyab

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Turn 58
Well the original plan was to secure the Donets river line but as I had a bridgehead at the start of this turn I decided to maintain momentum and have a go for Stalingrad. It went fairly well and 14th pz corps grabs a bridgehead over the Don, shame it couldn't sever the rail line.
After months of campaigning in the South, 39th pz corps and 5th corps with 7 mech divisions between them are reunited with 3rd pz army. They are given the task of expanding the Don bridgehead just to the South of Voronezh. This bridgehead has been under intense pressure since it was formed and on turn 56 came very close to being eliminated (map insert).

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< Message edited by timmyab -- 4/18/2014 2:10:51 AM >

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Post #: 183

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/18/2014 6:32:22 AM

Tarhunnas

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The front Turn 59, after Soviet moves.

The only thing worse than having the panzers at your throat is not having the panzers at your throat, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde. Or, to be more specific, the really scary thing is not knowing where the panzers are!

The Germans have pulled back from their penetration towards Stalingrad in the Don bend, and a lot of their mobile formations have disappeared from the radar. STAVKA has identified two concentrations, one in the bridgehead south of Voronezh and one south of Boguchar. There is also a small group in the Tula area, and some very suspicious looking units up north, northwest of Vyshni Volochek. The Red army has minimised offensive operations and gone into full carpet mode. There is also one STAVKA army on rails, ready to respond to any emergency.

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/18/2014 7:33:10 AM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/18/2014 7:15:40 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

The front Turn 59, after Soviet moves.

The only thing worse than having the panzers at your throat is not having the panzers at your throat, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde. Or, to be more specific, the really scary thing is not knowing where the panzers are!

agree, that is the worst (& best) of PBEM when you know your opponent is up to something but can't be sure just what it is. Would be surprised if he really shifted north as that commits him to an attritional battle where there is not much he can really gain ... maybe that group are just to stall any offensive you could muster?

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/18/2014 8:16:34 AM >

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Post #: 185

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/18/2014 1:29:17 PM

jwolf

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Too bad -- I had thought the Sirens' song would lure Timmyab to Stalingrad in a repeat of history. But it appears that he (wisely) pulled back. Also his AFV numbers are really low and I wonder now if he can make any genuine advance at all.

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Post #: 186

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/18/2014 2:03:09 PM

Tarhunnas

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Tanks are not everything I'm afraid, STEF78 did well with the same number of AFV:s. And I have 6500 operational tanks that apparently do not make much of an impression on the Germans.

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Post #: 187

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/18/2014 3:06:02 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Tanks are not everything I'm afraid, STEF78 did well with the same number of AFV:s.

Maybe I should read his AAR to figure out how he did it. I can see the German armored units would still have high mobility, and thus could form dangerous pockets. But what I don't see is how these (presumably weak?) Panzer divisions could hold against pocket breaking Soviet counterattacks.

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Post #: 188

RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 10:18:14 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Maybe I should read his AAR to figure out how he did it. I can see the German armored units would still have high mobility, and thus could form dangerous pockets. But what I don't see is how these (presumably weak?) Panzer divisions could hold against pocket breaking Soviet counterattacks.

Tanks are only part of their strength. But admittedly the Panzer divisions are not all that strong now, around CV 6-7 on average I would guess.

The trick as Germans is to use your mobility to wrong foot the Sovs. Infantry must help with the breakthrough and hold the flanks.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/19/2014 11:30:54 AM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 10:25:23 AM

Tarhunnas

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I didn't have time to document turn 60, but the Germans broke through at Voronezh and surrounded the best part of three armies. On turn 61 they exploited their success and struck northwards!

In the south, the invaders are retreating before the might of the Red Army, realizing the futility of trying to hold their ill gotten gains.

Map before Soviet moves.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 10:27:59 AM

Tarhunnas

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Not that the party would ever admit it, but things are starting too look a bit desperate, victory point wise...
We are running the 260 VP version.

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/19/2014 11:28:42 AM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 11:47:34 AM

gingerbread

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I feel weird to see that the Axis can break any Soviet line at their discretion, three hex wide breaks at that.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 12:09:48 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I feel weird to see that the Axis can break any Soviet line at their discretion, three hex wide breaks at that.

Well, I have no great problems with that. IMHO the weird part is that the Germans have the logistics to attack with every mobile formation on the Eastern Front in 1942, while in reality they had to keep a large part of them immobile.

The same goes for the Soviets to be fair, the Soviets should not have the logistics to attack all over the front in the winter of 1941-42.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 1:37:13 PM

swkuh

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in re "logistics," seems a good case for reducing the logistics factor at getgo.... I use 90/100 vs. AI and maybe 90/90 or 80/90 would be a better game.

BTW, would appreciate commentary on what "logistics" effects are in comparison to "supply" and "transportation."

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 4:04:36 PM

loki100

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wonder if we are starting to see what the mild blizzard is leading to for a typical 1942. Yes the axis forces may be badly damaged but they are going to start campaign well to the east of any examples from the original blizzard outcomes.

It then seems as if its MP not CV which is really the determinant of what happens next. They seem to need enough CVs to disrupt the Soviet lines but its the MP that converts that disruption into such massive pockets.

If so we really are back with the ongoing problem of the permissive logistic rules in the game. My PBEM with SigUp is using 90 for logistics (for us both) so it'll be interesting to see if he can repeat this sort of pattern of creating very large pockets.

No desire to open up old debates, but the emerging pattern of 1942 really makes me a bit worried that taking away the 1-1/2-1 in 1941 as well as the mild blizzard may really unbalance the game. No evidence for that, but its clear the axis forces are entering 1942 in a much more dangerous state even after a relatively balanced 1941.

On the other hand, it maybe that the solution is a very different Soviet deployment. Not so much the normal 3 hex deep behind the immediate front but a series of disconnected defense lines going back 6-7 hexes? That way the front line will be more vulnerable but German penetrations will be stopped and vulnerable to counterattacks from a much deeper reserve?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 7:03:36 PM

hfarrish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

wonder if we are starting to see what the mild blizzard is leading to for a typical 1942. Yes the axis forces may be badly damaged but they are going to start campaign well to the east of any examples from the original blizzard outcomes.

It then seems as if its MP not CV which is really the determinant of what happens next. They seem to need enough CVs to disrupt the Soviet lines but its the MP that converts that disruption into such massive pockets.

If so we really are back with the ongoing problem of the permissive logistic rules in the game. My PBEM with SigUp is using 90 for logistics (for us both) so it'll be interesting to see if he can repeat this sort of pattern of creating very large pockets.

No desire to open up old debates, but the emerging pattern of 1942 really makes me a bit worried that taking away the 1-1/2-1 in 1941 as well as the mild blizzard may really unbalance the game. No evidence for that, but its clear the axis forces are entering 1942 in a much more dangerous state even after a relatively balanced 1941.

On the other hand, it maybe that the solution is a very different Soviet deployment. Not so much the normal 3 hex deep behind the immediate front but a series of disconnected defense lines going back 6-7 hexes? That way the front line will be more vulnerable but German penetrations will be stopped and vulnerable to counterattacks from a much deeper reserve?

I'm not so sure - is Tarhunnas using tank corps and cav corps in reserve mode in key sectors? This is really critical to stopping the panzer mass, IMO. The one game I played after mild blizzard came out (against a good player who ppl would recognize) showed that a '42 defense was quite possible. Blizzard was rough for him in terms of combat but not in terms of lost units or anything.

CVs for the Reds seem low but so to the Germans - he shouldn't be getting those kinds of breaks.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/19/2014 8:51:24 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

wonder if we are starting to see what the mild blizzard is leading to for a typical 1942. Yes the axis forces may be badly damaged but they are going to start campaign well to the east of any examples from the original blizzard outcomes.

It then seems as if its MP not CV which is really the determinant of what happens next. They seem to need enough CVs to disrupt the Soviet lines but its the MP that converts that disruption into such massive pockets.

If so we really are back with the ongoing problem of the permissive logistic rules in the game. My PBEM with SigUp is using 90 for logistics (for us both) so it'll be interesting to see if he can repeat this sort of pattern of creating very large pockets.

No desire to open up old debates, but the emerging pattern of 1942 really makes me a bit worried that taking away the 1-1/2-1 in 1941 as well as the mild blizzard may really unbalance the game. No evidence for that, but its clear the axis forces are entering 1942 in a much more dangerous state even after a relatively balanced 1941.

On the other hand, it maybe that the solution is a very different Soviet deployment. Not so much the normal 3 hex deep behind the immediate front but a series of disconnected defense lines going back 6-7 hexes? That way the front line will be more vulnerable but German penetrations will be stopped and vulnerable to counterattacks from a much deeper reserve?

In a typical game, the Germans will take Leningrad and often Moscow, this is IMHO a big part of the 42 campaign starting further to the east than in the real campaign.

The reason the Germans can do that is IMHO the permissive logistics!

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/20/2014 10:29:23 PM

timmyab

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Turn 60/61
I decided that Stalingrad was a bridge too far after all. T put a load of stuff behind the Chir and the Don and that's before we even reach the Volga. With the rail heads still far away it would have taken the rest of the Summer to take the city if we ever did. The Soviets are also still too strong for a break South into the Caucasus so I'm going back to my original plan to dig in behind the Donets. Unfortunately this means that I've wasted two weeks with little to show for it.

So it's back to plan A which was to break out of the Don bridgehead South of Voronezh and head towards Tambov. This will bag me 7 VPs. From there I will have the advantage of controlling the center and can quickly switch my attack in any direction.

Turn 60
I managed to break the line on both sides of Voronezh forming a pocket with maybe 25 divisions inside. 5th corps bump a tank brigade out of Tambov and occupy the city.

Turn 61
I have options East and South East but by far the most tempting is North. It gives me river protection on both flanks of my narrow breakout corridor and the Oka to the North is an obvious target making life very uncomfortable for the Soviet armies South of Tula. To be honest I'm not certain who has their head in a noose here, him or me, but I think my mobility plus being able to choose the ground I fight on means that it's advantage Germany. I break up as much of the rail lines heading from the East as I can. Realizing their opportunity, 4th army makes an attempt to push South East to close the trap but the Soviet defenses are too strong and little progress is made.

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< Message edited by timmyab -- 4/20/2014 11:37:41 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 4:52:29 AM

Tarhunnas

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And here is a closeup of the front I manage to cobble together to contain the breakthrough. Map after Soviet moves turn 61.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 7:40:53 AM

morvael

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It's not good to play on .12.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 10:24:30 AM

Tarhunnas

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According to the event log Timmyab is using .14, I have reminded him to upgrade. I don't know why it says .12 in the window header.

Anyway, if I lose, I now have the perfect excuse

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 1:37:25 PM

timmyab

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It's .14. It doesn't show up on the window header for some reason. I've just updated it to .15.

I wont be able to play any more turns this week so I'll leave you with the latest situation map.

Turn 62
Plan A was to cross the Oka and sever the Rail line at Murom. This would cut the Soviet army in half and threaten the rear of the armies to the East of Moscow.
I'd actually committed to plan A and some of it had already been carried out until a random recon mission spotted that mystery unit behind the Oka. Finding out what that unit is would mean committing to a plan that would probably fail so I switched to plan B which possibly should be plan A anyway?
The confusion weakened plan B slightly, but with 4th army pressing from the NW it's still going to be tough for the Russians to break through the 'Kolomna Gap'. Already there are terrible scenes with Russian soldiers attempting to swim the Oka under a hail of bullets.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 6:44:44 PM

Tarhunnas

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In fact, the mystery unit was a CV 3 cavalry corps. Pity you didn't go for plan A, as it is I am in deep **** after plan B.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 4/21/2014 8:00:36 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 7:09:17 PM

jwolf

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Kudos to both players here; this is very interesting. Axis needs 7 more points, but can he get them? Supposing the worst case for the Russians near the Oka, that would be a lot of units captured ... but no major cities (at least, not directly).

Six more turns of summer weather? I'm very curious to see how this plays out.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/21/2014 8:25:17 PM

M60A3TTS

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The Fall rains won't allow the Soviet to recover sufficiently. The Axis will still be able to launch a winter offensive if another city or two is needed.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/22/2014 7:04:16 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The Fall rains won't allow the Soviet to recover sufficiently. The Axis will still be able to launch a winter offensive if another city or two is needed.

this is one of those games where the 260 VP is a bit of a problem. Often its a blessed relief to have a cut off point to play for, but here, while it seems as if timmyab has dominated 1942 less sure this is enough to stop some sort of Soviet recovery in 1943

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/22/2014 12:36:30 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The Fall rains won't allow the Soviet to recover sufficiently. The Axis will still be able to launch a winter offensive if another city or two is needed.

You are spoiling the suspense!

You sound almost as categorical as Flaviusx

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/22/2014 6:53:58 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Well I've held my comment until things developed a bit more, but now I would like to repeat the comment I made just before Tarhunnas insisted I was wrong about it...

TO WHIT:

"ROFLMAO... this is utter rubbish. The Russians barely have sufficient forces to hold a contiguous line in 42, much less assemble a combat capable counter-attack that is anything more than an invitation to be pocketed."

My work here is done...

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 4/22/2014 8:06:13 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/22/2014 9:01:58 PM

Tarhunnas

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It might not be the game, a possible explanation might be that my opponent has outplayed me...

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 4/22/2014 9:33:16 PM

gingerbread

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You're too modest.

He might have outplayed you, but you have greatly influenced the outcome, in particular during '42, with your fight forward doctrine. It's time to finally put it to rest.

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