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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 2:56:14 AM   
Rhikore

 

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Greetings, All.
New player here, yet a long time gamer/strategy gamer. Purchased the game through Steam a few days ago.
I may have overlooked something... but wouldnt the obvious answer to the tax issue, be to impose a penatly on the financial ticks where you would generate negative cash?(Removing Negative Ammounts Altogether)
Perhaps damaging Components on Bases/Fleets(Due to wear).
A system like this would give a huge impetus to maintain positive Cash/Cashflow, and altogether eliminate the early game 0% tax "Exploit."
Unpaid Maintenance fees = Bad Juju.

(in reply to Tcby)
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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 3:02:12 AM   
Tcby


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I suggested something similar on steam as well. My suggestion was to simply reduce growth rate and/or happiness when you go too deeply into the negative figures. I'm guessing that would be easier than incorporating an entirely new passive degradation mechanic. Removing the great benefit of being at 0% taxation (vastly superior pop growth rate) when you economy is tanking seems straight forward. This limits early game human exploit. Mid to late game it's not an issue if we simply adjust the AI taxation policy to maintain 0% at new colonies until they reach max population, or at least something more substantial than the 200 million (..I think?) that is currently rests at.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 6/4/2014 4:02:57 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 3:13:03 AM   
Rhikore

 

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Tcby, in terms of strategic gameplay, there needs to be viable options, not just a "Set here" feature, IMO.
I didnt even consider using 0% taxes, as in general, with other strategy/4x games, this causes major issues.
I was surprised by the post I found regarding this.

Another option would be to set a Nominal range for taxes. IE 7(+/-) - 45(+/-). Implementing heavy Happiness penalties, Lower Growth, in addition to Migration increases. Potentially even a Civil war.
@ 5%, or Lower, With little or no cash on hand: When the Local government stops paying for police, potholes, and piping.... Citizens are gonna jet.

< Message edited by Rhikore -- 6/4/2014 4:19:31 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 3:13:55 AM   
Spidey


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The thing is, zero taxing doesn't mean negative money. I've zero taxed for nearly a full decade without going into negative money. It means a negative cashflow, obviously, but it would be decidedly silly to interpret deficit spending as a situation where bills aren't getting paid, as long as the state actually has a stockpile of money to pay bills with.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 3:16:01 AM   
Rhikore

 

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Right, hence why I suggested this for the specific issues it causes with Pre-Warp, and AI Balance.
"Cash/Cashflow", per my initial Post.
Farther down the road when you have some cash to burn, set taxation to 0%.

In my current games, to avoid this whole issue, Im forcing myself to actively maintain a positive Income, when my cash on hand is low.
Gives cause for a lot more thought on how/when to expand.


< Message edited by Rhikore -- 6/4/2014 4:25:20 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 3:55:44 AM   
Spidey


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I'll say this one more time, and I'll try to be very clear about it. Deficit spending doesn't mean you don't have cash. It means you're spending more cash than you're currently making. Having all kinds of harsh measures against deficit spending makes about as much sense as having lasers shoot pink flowers. And unless you target the deficit spending itself, meaning negative cashflow, then your suggestion does sod all to prevent the early game growth "exploit".

Just to make it very clear, I don't go into negative money at all early game regardless of zero taxing because taxes are not the only revenue stream you have access to, and you've got a great deal of control over your expenses as well. And it makes no sense to punish players for covering their expenses through other means than taxation, particularly not when the only "problem" is that the AI doesn't take sufficient advantage of zero tax.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:06:33 AM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

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Icemania, one of the key breakthroughs in player mods for MOO3 was Bhruic's hacking of the AI ship designs, with his AutoBuild patch.

A little bird told us the MOO3 source code annotations were on the Mac disk version of the game, and Bhruic used that to both eliminate the bugs and let us mod the AI.

DW2 letting players similarly mod the AI would add enormous amount to the game's legs.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:20:41 AM   
Rhikore

 

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I understand deficit spending etc, Let me be clear.
In a pre-warp game if you start with 0% taxes, you quickly redline both Cash, and Cashflow, Assuming youre trying to expand at all.



< Message edited by Rhikore -- 6/4/2014 5:23:15 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:21:34 AM   
Tcby


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I think we're on the same page in that respect Spidey. I zero tax the majority of the time and do not go into negative money. One of my favourite aspects of the economy is that you can utilize other revenue sources.

The purpose of my suggestion is to place a soft limit on the extent to which you can do this pre warp. After that point it doesn't matter because AI's can be taught to do the same thing with their new colonies, as long as we increase the time they spend at 0%. Pre warp they cannot do it effectively, and so at least preventing us from being able to survive in negative money seems reasonable.

Or am I missing something in your post? I'll have another read.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 6/4/2014 5:25:56 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:24:09 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore

I understand deficit spending etc, Let me be clear.
In a pre-warp game if you start with 0% taxes, you quickly redline both Cash, and Cashflow, Assuming youre trying to expand at all.



This isn't accurate, Rhik. You can zero tax without going into negative money and I tend to do it for long periods at very hard difficulty.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 6/4/2014 5:25:11 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:27:23 AM   
Tcby


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Please see my edit Spidey. Also to reiterate - correctly timing private retrofits, profiting from pirate refueling etc whilst at 0% is the most enjoyable part of pre warp! Always watching the budget carefully :)

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:27:33 AM   
pycco

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore

I understand deficit spending etc, Let me be clear.
In a pre-warp game if you start with 0% taxes, you quickly redline both Cash, and Cashflow, Assuming youre trying to expand at all.



This isn't accurate, Rhik. You can zero tax without going into negative money and I tend to do it for long periods at very hard difficulty.

can confirm this as well
ah see you ninjaed me there are other ways as well


< Message edited by pycco -- 6/4/2014 5:38:17 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:44:04 AM   
Rhikore

 

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I wondered if the retrofits were what you guys were talking about...
Im a mix of Min-Maxer, and Rpg/Theme-er. Some options I refuse to take as I see them being counter-intuitive to state security, etc.
For the Past few days, that Ive owned the game, Ive been mainly customizing private and state ships/bases, so I can optimize my early game.
I play on the hardest difficulty with strong pirates.

Im guessing I probably just need to slow down my expansion if I want to rock 0% tax. However, it just seems unnatural/wonky.

Sucks being split between Theme/Racial Play and Min-maxing.

< Message edited by Rhikore -- 6/4/2014 5:47:27 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:48:58 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

I think we're on the same page in that respect Spidey. I zero tax the majority of the time and do not go into negative money. One of my favourite aspects of the economy is that you can utilize other revenue sources.

The purpose of my suggestion is to place a soft limit on the extent to which you can do this pre warp. After that point it doesn't matter because AI's can be taught to do the same thing with their new colonies, as long as we increase the time they spend at 0%. Pre warp they cannot do it effectively, and so at least preventing us from being able to survive in negative money seems reasonable.

Or am I missing something in your post? I'll have another read.


I agree about the fun of trying to make due with that hugely limited zero tax budget and trying to tweak out every penny of the private sector. Gives a bit of early suspense until you're in the proper warp age and massive expansion becomes a priority.

Regarding a limitation, I'm not really against it, but it has to be done with some finesse in order to make sense. It would easily offset the player early game advantage, of course, but the problem for me is that it feels like artificial cheese unless the justification for the limitation is actually something that does make sense. And I can't really think of any such reason. Okay, negative money could be justified but negative cashflow alone? And there's no growth bonus to slowly decrease. The high percentage is really the default growth rate without any tax-induced penalties.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:54:31 AM   
Tcby


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I agree: negative cash flow by itself should not be punished. Only 'negative money'. In terms of growth rate, you are right that there is not technically a bonus to reduce. To be more precise, what I suggest is a cumulative malus to be added if you reach negative money.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 6/4/2014 5:55:30 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 4:57:41 AM   
Rhikore

 

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To Clarify, when I put Cash/Cashflow, that was my way of abbreviating the relationship, with the end idea being Negative Cash.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers!

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:00:30 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore

I wondered if the retrofits were what you guys were talking about...
Im a mix of Min-Maxer, and Rpg/Theme-er. Some options I refuse to take as I see them being counter-intuitive to state security, etc.
For the Past few days, that Ive owned the game, Ive been mainly customizing private and state ships/bases, so I can optimize my early game.
I play on the hardest difficulty with strong pirates.

Im guessing I probably just need to slow down my expansion if I want to rock 0% tax. However, it just seems unnatural/wonky.

Sucks being split between Theme/Racial Play and Min-maxing.

The basic gist of it, as far as I'm concerned, is to keep expenses way down. I don't build military until post-warp and my space port sure isn't the default design either. It's a stripped down 6 yards / 12 bays design with no weapons whatsoever, as it happens. If pirates come, I pay until they leave. I start out with a multi-science station divided between the branches in either 1:2:1 or 1:3:1. I put one of each lab on mining stations as soon as I research energy collectors.

I build two or three scouts with speed 50 and the moment I'm done scouting my system, I retire them. I typically build two constructors. One of them often ends up sucking on the battered hull in my system, so I can get the research bonus. If there's a good scenic place then I'll possibly build a resort, once I get the tech for it.

Also, if I can find indies relatively early, I'll invade the heck out of them. They'll then order ships from my shipyard, which means I get a good deal of money. Obviously this won't happen pre-warp, but my favorite race is Quameno, and they're generally at warp long before they're anywhere near max pop, even at zero tax and high tech cost.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:04:41 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

I agree: negative cash flow by itself should not be punished. Only 'negative money'. In terms of growth rate, you are right that there is not technically a bonus to reduce. To be more precise, what I suggest is a cumulative malus to be added if you reach negative money.

This I agree with. Well, sort of. It's a bit of a stretch that humans would give a damn if their state is running itself bankrupt as long as they're getting their goodies, and if humans don't care then why should aliens, but for the sake of gameplay, I don't think it's too unreasonable to make the argument that a state with negative money is annoying the hell out of some citizens, which in turn is dampening growth.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:05:42 AM   
Tcby


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At the risk of derailing the thread, I follow roughly the same process you just described Spidey (except no quameno! way too strong ). I don't understand why you put a lab on every mining station though. Is this simply to avoid paying the maintenance yourself...?

< Message edited by Tcby -- 6/4/2014 6:06:33 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:05:56 AM   
Lihnit23

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Note to self: Try using DisallowedResearchArea tomorrow ... might be another way to improve AI Weapon Research focus.




A much better way to improve AI research is to use DisallowedComponentIDs. For example, I modded the Boskaras to only use rail guns and their race specific torps. They completely ignore all of the beams past maxos blasters (I need the maxos blasters to get to ion defenses), ion pulse, gravity stuff, fighters, non-race torps, assault pods, and assault missiles (I need earlier missiles to get point defense).

I put the line in as follows: DisallowedComponentIds ;1,3,2,106,110,115,116,118,119,113,117,114,108,5,6,7,8,16,105,11,12


< Message edited by Lihnit23 -- 6/4/2014 6:07:33 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:07:25 AM   
Rhikore

 

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Exactly, Spidey.
On the side, now you 2 are making me look even harder into my well of min-maxing which is annoying...
I guess I shouldve expected as much, this is my 2nd or 3rd day playing.


@ Lihnit, I havent looked into the AI at all, but excellent thought on Disallowed Components.

@ Tcby, Regarding theme-play/counterintuitiveness, My Government Leaders wouldnt cheesily, and deceitfully up-sell to the private sector. Rubbish artifice.

< Message edited by Rhikore -- 6/4/2014 6:13:29 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:10:58 AM   
Tcby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

I agree: negative cash flow by itself should not be punished. Only 'negative money'. In terms of growth rate, you are right that there is not technically a bonus to reduce. To be more precise, what I suggest is a cumulative malus to be added if you reach negative money.

This I agree with. Well, sort of. It's a bit of a stretch that humans would give a damn if their state is running itself bankrupt as long as they're getting their goodies, and if humans don't care then why should aliens, but for the sake of gameplay, I don't think it's too unreasonable to make the argument that a state with negative money is annoying the hell out of some citizens, which in turn is dampening growth.


I imagine that state owned infrastructure (hospitals..) would run into problems if they could not be paid. Although this could be a moot point if the civilians aren't even being taxed! Plenty of spare money for private health care. Nevertheless, the poor would likely suffer and it's plausible that growth would decline. Or maybe it would somehow increase! I don't even know.

This is space healthcare we're talking about. Perhaps at that point money is a non issue.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:30:27 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

At the risk of derailing the thread, I follow roughly the same process you just described Spidey (except no quameno! way too strong ). I don't understand why you put a lab on every mining station though. Is this simply to avoid paying the maintenance yourself...?

Yeah, the Quams are too strong, but you get addicted to that ridiculous research rate. At least I sort of did. Tried a game as bugs a few days ago and felt totally off since my research was absolutely nowhere after 10 years. Maxed pop easily but just had sod all tech to show for it. Felt ridiculous.

Regarding the labs, I'm putting them on mining stations out of general principle. They're an expense I really don't need to have and there's no downside that I can see. Okay, the private sector eventually has an expense on labs that aren't being used, but so what? The private sector is swimming in cash regardless. Meanwhile I've got better things to fund, like more exploration ships to find stuff, more construction ships to repair wrecks, and a bigger space navy to sort out the hostiles.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 5:38:03 AM   
Tcby


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...and you make slightly more profit from each station when they are initially built. And oversupply of labs ensures that you will always be operating at max capacity. You can always add labs to your spaceport if you want to influence research tree allocation. Makes sense! Guess I'll start doing that too.although I will continue to build cheap throwaway research stations in prewarp to encourage the RNG character generation to spit out scentists.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 6:08:38 AM   
pycco

 

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wow that's so dirty it feels like cheating IMO, mining stations with labs
never thought of it though good idea i can see why you do it, it does have little to no effect on private section and you are sure to never need more unless you have no mines in which case you have lost or are about to.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 6:31:24 AM   
Spidey


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@ Tcby

Exactly. And just to push things to the max, one could in fact blend the two approaches. Start out with small, cheap research bases to trigger scientists and then gradually retrofit them down to retirement as lab-mines go up. It's a bit more work but it should give the best of all worlds. And it cuts a few thousand off the maintenance bill during the time when it really matters.

@ Pycco

If you think labs on mining stations is cheap then try fitting them with long range scanners. That said, I didn't really come up with this approach, I just saw someone mention it in an old topic a while back and then I ran with it. And it really does work brilliantly, which is why I keep doing it, even though it's not very sporting against the AI.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 6:54:48 AM   
Tcby


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Yes, I'll be going for the gradual phase out that you described :)

Rhikore and anyone else intimidated by this degree of micro/abuse: I understand. When I play I usually decide at the beginning whether I'm going to min/max to the extreme, or whether I will roleplay. They are both enjoyable in different ways.

Sorry for sidetracking your thread Ice.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 6/4/2014 7:55:11 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 8:10:02 AM   
fenrislokison

 

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Going back to taxes, i don't think the issue lies in the 0% tax, i think it's more the ability to raise the taxes from 0 to 40, 50 or even 60% in one go.

Imagine what would happen:
- people would have to leave their home since they wouldn't be able to paid the rents anymore
- they wouldn't be able to pay their fees anymore
- all companies living on these fees would have to close, making a lot of unemployed people
- unemployed people means less customers for various companies, leading these companies to close and meaning more unemployment.

Rapidly, the economy of the world would just crumble.

People would start rioting, blaming government and it would need armed troops to maintain order.

That's why it should be possible to raise taxes this fast and just rake in the money. Taxes should be raised slowly, over the years, maybe 2% max per year on average before problems start raising.
And better than a hard cap, raising taxes beyond a point should provoke unrest and an increasingly chance of economic crisis (which just happen to already exist in the game, nice huh? :) ).

The fact that 0% taxes increase growth (or low taxes in general) is fine in my eyes, after all, when people have a lot of money, they settle down and start raising a family. When taxes are high, they think a bit before having a child since it brings financial troubles.


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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 8:40:34 AM   
Joking_Phantom

 

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Honestly if you think about it, forcing the private sector to have all these expenses and responsibilities is really just a dressed up tax itself. Like someone said in an earlier post, redesigning ships and stations basically mandates that the private sector retrofit and pay the state (you) money to do so. It's another form of the player spending money towards an objective, except the private sector is the one forking over the cash directly instead of paying it to the middleman government to do so. So instead of the government levying huge taxes to pay for state healthcare, education, defense and transportation in a socialistic society, the government mandates private companies do it all. Also the government happens to own all the physical resources to do so, so private companies must pay the government to do all the construction work and then have to pay upkeep once its done (note that this is totally unrealistic but its part of DW since it assumes that the empire is driven by a central authority and not private citizens). While the capacity to provide fake power and control keeps some people somewhat happy in real life in many situations, it is not sufficient to satisfy the entire populace by saying "you gotta do all this stuff, but we aren't taxing you so you have the money to do it." Some people are going to be mad that they have to follow so many rules and regulations, and a few will realize that the "small no tax" government is in fact, a farce (not a comment on big vs. small, just a statement that in fact its not small at all).

There is no physical difference in having a central authority ask for money to do stuff and having a central authority telling other people to do stuff with their money because its good for them. Both situations achieve the same end result, but the latter tends to make populations happier because they feel more in control. But again, its not an end all be all situation to getting a society to do stuff. It's not in real life, and it shouldn't be in DW.

This is arguably an exploit that allows players to directly bypass the taxation mechanic entirely and ensure huge population growth. In fact, it is. I ran a very hard difficulty, prewarp test game where I followed one simple policy after the first year: 0% taxes for all until max population, no matter what. I set design upgrades and retrofits to manual, well all I could anyways. Scanners, energy-fuel converters, labs, weapons, and shields went on all the private sector facilities and ships. The economy flourished and I smashed the AI with tricked out defensive bases disguised as mining stations and resupply stations that looked like resort bases. My empire balance sheet had all the maintenance figures on the private sector side, and my initial taxation revenues were zero. But it was more than made up for by “space port income” and the power of the private sector to blow some things up for me. Also I hear that you can turn freighters into moving batteries of doom with super area weapons, but I didn't try that since I had already won the game at that point. This is a totally broken exploit that puts the AI at a huge disadvantage if the player uses it. It may be fun at first to win in a scenario with all the difficulty dials turned to max with this exploit among others, but it gets old fast. It's micromanagement to make the game easier, negating the point of playing on a higher difficulty. For me, its far more rewarding if I avoid unrealistic exploits like this. Why go through all this work and waste time just so I have a resources advantage to counter the very hard difficulty penalties, when I can not micromanage and play on normal or hard difficulty? But its understandable that the allure to do so is there. Micromanagement intensive exploits are the most abused exploits since their very presence tempts players to use them, and their use does not immediately destroy the enjoyment of the game. While they break game balance and let players steamroll over the opposition without significant strategic planning or intelligence, they also force the player to do nontrivial amounts of clicking and tactical thinking that make cheesing the game not boring, at least initially.

There is no such thing as a free lunch in reality, and there shouldn't be in a space empire simulator. But ultimately it's up to the players discretion to play the game however they want. Just understand that the 0% tax exploit is not indicative of a simple "taxes are broken" problem that can be easily fixed. 0% taxes in new colonies should trigger growth and migration to that colony. But 0% taxes everywhere, including the homeworld until max population and high development should never ever work. But it does. The problem is that shifting the financial burden of state activities onto the private sector without an appropriate growth in dissatisfaction, corruption and protests especially from upper class citizens and the super rich is silly. I suppose the game designer(s) (am I correct in my impression that this is a one man operation? There's been sparse mention of who and how this game was developed so I'm probably be wrong) could impose further restrictions on private sector designs, happiness/ corruption penalties for sky rocketing maintenance costs, shift the ownership of physical resources towards the private sector, or something else. But all other things being equal, the zero taxation policy creating huge private sector and population growth is not the problem.

I could elaborate on other silly abusable game mechanics and exploits that create needless management and burden without actually creating gameplay or entertainment, like the poor AI ship design, the very existence of research labs, pirate protection, exploration mechanics, but that'll have to wait until I have more time. This isn't to mention flat out balance breaking things as well, like energy to fuel converters. Seriously, those things generate plenty of caslon and hydrogen and their upkeep costs are trivial. You can ignore fuel limitations on fleets and generate free revenue by spamming those, since colonies consume them as well. Technology theft from the Ancient Guardians makes getting these early a game ender, among other technologies. This game has a lot of potential, and the things it does right it really does them right. But it's too full of imbalance. With a great deal of polish or even extensive overhauls of what I think are outdated or irrational systems, this game could be great. And even if it doesn't happen, one can still have good time if they ignore the lame portions of micromanagement and instead focus on the big picture. This game reminds me a lot of the Paradox Interactive games, namely Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis and Victoria. They have excellent gameplay mechanics and polish in some areas, but in other areas a lot more work is needed. Work, time and effort that a company may not be willing to or able to spend, and it's only on occasion where a few fans with great skill in programming and game design volunteers their time to suss out the problems with unofficial patches, if they get access to previously closed or particularly complex portions of the code.

tl;dr: Making private sector stuff do state stuff is taxes without the happiness penalty. Want a harder game? Don't do that.

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RE: Distant Worlds AI - 6/4/2014 9:27:47 AM   
fenrislokison

 

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While i agree on the general idea you exposed, i must say, having the private sector paying to do state stuff exists in reality, especially in the security area and health care area.

For example, in France, asbestos in buildings isn't authorized anymore (since some years now) and old buildings using it must be cleaned, but the owners of the buildings have to pay for it, not the state.

another example is that cars must be equipped with safety belts and be built such as in case of an accident, the car crushes itself to absorb the impact. All this is paid by the buyers of the cars, in most case, the private sector.

Well, for these examples, you could object that the state doesn't sell the services or objects it forces people to use, but here is one:
- in France, electricity production is done by EDF company, which is property of the state, so the state sells electricity to people. At the same time, there are regulations to equip buildings with propers electrical installations used by EDF to monitor electrical distributions. These electrical installations are partly paid by the customers, in other words the private sector.

So while i perfectly understood your point regarding abuse, it is still very possible to have the state enact laws forcing buildings to be equipped with such or such equipment and having the state being the only seller of said equipment.
A bit dirty, but perfectly valid.

The abuse in the game comes from the fact the private sector is much much stronger than it is IRL so it can endure a lot more and the fact that game people are just sheeps, much more than in reality as they don't strike or rebel as they should be.

(in reply to Joking_Phantom)
Post #: 120
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