Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

"Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
"Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in the... - 10/12/2013 11:03:06 PM   
$trummer

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		Moroccan Air Force F-16s and Mirages are splashing my AAW-equipped F/A-18s in this scenario. I'm curious; is the Viper really as superior as this to the (admittedly dual-mission) Hornet? My second question is this: despite being admonished against first use of weapons in this scenario, wouldn't I be wise to hit those Moroccan airfields preemptively, given how destructive their F-16s are once they get in the air?
Post #: 1
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/12/2013 11:09:52 PM   
Russian Heel


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline 		For your 2nd question, political will always trumps military wisdom.

(in reply to $trummer)
Post #: 2
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 1:09:26 AM   
SSN754planker


Posts: 448
Joined: 10/2/2013
Status: offline 		One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.

_____________________________

MY BOOK LIST
ST1/SS SSN 754

(in reply to Russian Heel)
Post #: 3
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 2:01:01 AM   
$trummer

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.

Yes. For once I'm not going to blame user error on my part. Every evenly-weighted confrontation between a Maroccan F-16 and a Spanish F/A-18 was weighted heavily in favor of the Moroccan aces. Perhaps there is a big gap in a2A capability between the two platforms but in real life I'd be surprised if the Spanish air force did not have an edge.

(in reply to SSN754planker)
Post #: 4
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 2:03:42 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		That is something I like to see addressed. In Tim Stones review he says the game is obsessive over hardware but lacks the "software" element. Be able to have Ace's modeled and different training levels would be cool and add a massive amount of immersion. Also the crew of ships to be modeled including casualties which then affects overall performance. If that gets implemented and when the ground gets abit more love I will purchase.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

One thing i hope that gets modeled soon is being able to set "pilot effectiveness/training level." This would bring yet another level of realism to scenarios.


_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to SSN754planker)
Post #: 5
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 2:53:48 AM   
$trummer

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 6
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 4:30:55 AM   
Temple

 

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline 		Besides pilot training, there can also be maintenance and serving competence levels. Re-arming a fighter is going to take a lot longer if your mechanics were force recruited straight off a farm and given very little training. Also the reliability of weapon systems would be effected (think Iranian F-14s).

(in reply to $trummer)
Post #: 7
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 4:45:02 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I just ran a test scenario 4 times...took the Canary Cage and modified it to have 4 x F/A-18A with AIM-120B and 4 x F-16 with Sparrows.

In the four runs throughs below is what I saw...in each run through.

Spain lost 2 F/A-18's to Sparrows. Fired 4 AIM-120Bs.

Morocco lost 2 F-16s and expended 8 Sparrows.

I had one run through where Spain lost only 1 F/A-18.

I don't consider that uneven at all. You have 4 fighters that are roughly equivalent. Morocco had to expend twice as much ordinance to achieve somewhat equal results.

I just pointed each group at each other and watched in God Mode. I canned the scenario after all long-range AAW weapons were expended. I'll test some more on short-range stuff.

(in reply to Temple)
Post #: 8
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 7:15:37 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*

_____________________________

Facebook
Twitter

(in reply to $trummer)
Post #: 9
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 7:17:47 PM   
$trummer

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*

India does NOT have a third-world military. It is a highly-trained nuclear-armed military that has been on a semi-war footing for twenty years. Also, re. Cope India, to Wikipedia cites the following: "The American pilots in 2004 allegedly flew under restrictions to give the Indians flying their Russian aircraft a better chance."

< Message edited by $trummer -- 10/13/2013 7:26:31 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 10
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 7:32:20 PM   
Pergite!

 

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer
I've been indifferent to the "morale " issue so far, but if a third-world military can trump a first-world military in quite this way, even allowing for user error, which I genuinely not not believe to be a factor here, that is inherently unrealistic.


*cough*Cope India 2005*cough*

India does NOT have a third-world military. It is a highly-trained nuclear-armed military that has been on a semi-war footing for twenty years. Also, re. Cope India, to Wikipedia cites the following: "The American pilots in 2004 allegedly flew under restrictions to give the Indians flying their Russian aircraft a better chance."


F16 without data links or AMRAAMs against SU30s with full support was hardly a fair fight, regardless of pilot training.

(in reply to $trummer)
Post #: 11
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 10/13/2013 7:38:17 PM   
Pergite!

 

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline 		Anyway, a "morale" factor would be useless if hardcoded into the db. It would just be a subject debate without adding much value. It's the optimal use of sensors and weapons and C3 that wins the day. For some scenarios there would however be a point in the ability to alter roe and doctrine to reproduce real historical outcomes.

(in reply to Pergite!)
Post #: 12
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 6/8/2014 12:41:49 PM   
jonpspri


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/3/2014
Status: offline 		I've been playing this scenario for days now, because it's so addictively frustrating. My current feeling is the AI doctrine on BVR missiles needs a little tweaking, especially against a highly maneuverable opponent like the F16C Block 42. AMRAAMs are arriving on target with no maneuverability left, leading to ridiculously low hit rates.

I'm not complaining, mind you; in fact I'm being forced to think very hard about my CAP policies and engagement approaches to dealing with these guys. I may have to take manual control of intercepts to get the splash ratios I want. Any other thoughts on how to best use the AMRAAM against a maneuverable opponent?

_____________________________

"You have debauched my sloth." - Stephen Maturin in H.M.S. Surprise

(in reply to Pergite!)
Post #: 13
RE: "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in... - 6/8/2014 1:58:38 PM   
Coldmeter

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline
I've played scenario twice last week, first time out I lost a few F-18's, second time after I tweaked my AAW patrols I quickly wiped all the Moroccan aircraft out of the skies over the mainland. Thought it was an excellent scenario. I was going to hit the airfields but after the A2A was finished over the mainland their was no need.

mark

(in reply to jonpspri)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> "Canary's Cage": Those magnificent men in their Moroccan F-16s Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.859