Counter Pushing Disease

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Counter Pushing Disease

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> Counter Pushing Disease

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Counter Pushing Disease - 6/17/2014 7:48:27 PM

flibby

Posts: 133
Joined: 5/30/2004
From: Jyvaskla, Mid-Finland
Status: offline

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

Post #: 1

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/17/2014 8:20:14 PM

budd

Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline

I feel your pain, as long as i can remember i've wanted to play these great concept monster games but have never really managed it successfully. I've come to grips with my limitations and stick to medium sized scenarios or campaigns or smaller, especially with counter pushing games. Part of its time and part of its patience and the rest is i'm not that good a commander above a certain unit number count .....ooooo and the rest is attention span

I've pretty much stopped buying them. i try to remember these are games, there supposed to be fun. I don't know how many times i've opened the large games/scenarios up looked at it, maybe made a few moves and then i usually quit. command ops is about the only game where i can play a large scenario. My advice is don't worry about it and play whats fun for you. I do read all the AAR's of the monster games though and i'll start thinking about trying one again and then the idea of spending 2 to 3 hours on one turn hits me and i cringe....still....maybe one day.

Have fun

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 2

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/17/2014 8:43:50 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

Personally, I just stopped playing micromanagement hell games.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 3

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 12:49:12 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

I feel much the same way about Schwerpunkt's "Russo-German War". There was a beautiful map mod that I downloaded which makes it pleasant to look at, but there is SO much micromanagement that it gets overwhelming.

I even feel that way with the larger SPWaW scenarios. I suppose this is why I keep returning to AoE III, in which the population maximum is 200 (civilian & military units combined).

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 4

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 1:08:01 AM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone�
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

Maybe the game is not for you, that's all

Anyway, is this vs the AI or PBEM? Since its release I played for 2 years

three PBEM games (with AARs). A lot of fun.

Still, I don't get why by november (41, I assume) you are not interested in moving those counters anymore. Hey, blizzard is around the corner. It's getting interesting... or sinister!

I don't think it's a micro-management nightmare either (as I have said, 3 PBEMs under my belt). But maybe I say so because I keep playing since 2004 -no interruptions- WitP AE. And that IS indeed micro-management. Daily turns vs weekly turns (WitE).

Maybe these massive operational games are not for you. Not bad per se, obviously. To each his own. I, on the other hand, never liked tactical games.

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 5

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 1:09:13 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

This is probably why I'll be playing Piercing Fortress Europa when I have the time. Also, the latest MP game for Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941 called Smolensk is extremely tense with small number of counters.

Those that already have all the good Matrix games must also look elsewhere. I humbly suggest that once Steam starts its Summer Sale, check out Panzer Tactics HD and Battle Worlds Kronos. Unless you must have absolute historicity, these darn games are enjoyable as all heck and less of a grind than Panzer Corps. They are just a bit pricey right now.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 6

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 2:30:35 AM

rodney727

Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline

I enjoyed time of fury and that game is a counter pusher. After June 22nd the turns go from five minutes to 30 which is all I can take!

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 7

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 7:25:12 AM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

Yeah, I suffer from it a lot now. After play Norbsoft's Command control type game where one can just be a commander if they want I don't care so much for button pushing counters around anymore. Command Ops is great for this as well. Besides it's too easy to exploit the ai when you have full control. Distant Worlds is more fun because there's no hexes and square shaped counters to move around one at a time.

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 8

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 8:23:06 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

warspite1

I would agree with TD. Sounds like its just a case that the game is not for you.

I also struggled with WITE (and WITP-AE). Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 9

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 12:21:59 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone�
Status: offline

Anyway he's giving some clues. Playing as Axis and getting tired when Barbarossa is over. November in the game is a mix of mud and snow. The Russian Bear is starting to gather forces, reserves.

You have plenty of small scenarios: 1941 and 1942 German summer offensives, then the Soviet blows: 1943-44-45. And play as the player on the offensive.

That should be your natural choice methinks

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 10

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 12:27:01 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone�
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

One of these days I should give WIF a try. I never played the game. And I am pretty certain it is magnificent

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 11

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 1:00:44 PM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

Given that in game "A" each unit has 3 variables, I like to micro manage those 3 variables.

Given that in game "B" each unit has 20 variables, I like to micro manage those 20 variables.

I like to play wargames via PBEM turns. Each turn should take 30 - 45 mins. Any longer and I am not interested.

So, a wargame with few variables could have a larger number of counters. If it has lots of variables it must have a smaller number of counters.

So, I loved Grisby's Uncommon Valour but I didn't get Grisby's War in the East.
.
.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 12

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/18/2014 10:21:53 PM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

With the DLC's WitE isn't really a counter pusher, although the rules (and rules changes) are intimidating. I would consider it, Joe, if it went on sale for sure.

My award for counterpusher of the decade is the newly released Fall Weiss by WI. There is absolutely nothing to do but push hundreds of counters, unlike Time of Fury. And the new HQ and Supply rules lose their meaning when nothing is explained in the manual or on the map. I pity the unwary on Steam :)

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 13

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 1:14:52 AM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

Heh, you guys don't know what button pushing is until you have played "D-Day The beginning of the End" as that game has more button pushing than I've ever seen in a game before. Look it up, play it once if you dare.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 6/19/2014 2:15:28 AM >

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 14

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 1:29:38 AM

barkman44

Posts: 344
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline

I don't care for the air model in wite so quit playing.
am currently playing dc WtP and Case Blue and have PFE on the back burner.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 15

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 3:40:11 AM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline

the game is far too hard for me also, it just put me off, i've played just about every war game there is, and been playing them now for almost 35+ years, it goes back on once a year or so, i patch it up, after i have loaded it, give it a spin for a day or 2 then re decided if its still for me or not, most years so far it's been a not, if i have nothing else to play at the time i may spend longer on it, but most of the time if anything else is out, i'd stick with that, not saying its a bad game either as some will love it, just very hardcore and something that i can't just get into atm, maybe when i'm older i may appreciate it more as i'm also sure it's me and not the game, time is never an issue when i play something, i just don't get a good feeling when i have played it, it's like fighting the real battle in real time, far too much to do for me, so it's a depth issue for me, i'd like it more if i was a few stages higher up, giving more overall command decisions and letting the AI take over some of the more basic stuff at lower levels...

another 10 years on or so, i may amend this post

< Message edited by zakblood -- 6/19/2014 4:41:47 AM >

(in reply to barkman44)

Post #: 16

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 4:17:19 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

On the topic of WitE, I am wondering if World in Flames is even more complex - or not?

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 17

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 4:28:34 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

On the topic of WitE, I am wondering if World in Flames is even more complex - or not?

warspite1

I would say WIF IS complex - largely because many of the game concepts and mechanics are so different to other wargames both board and computer. Once you have mastered these though, the game is challenging and great fun in equal measure. There is never any sense of just "pushing counters around". There is so much to think about, so many decisions to make as to what to use, when etc. You need to co-ordinate land and air assets (and often naval assets too) for each attack/defence.

A big, complex game, yes - but just sooooo much fun too.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 18

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 7:07:46 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

If you're playing the AI, just don't move any counters if you don't feel like there's anything compelling to be done. You're skipping the boring parts of the game while also making the game more interesting in the long run by giving the AI a leg-up.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 19

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/19/2014 7:20:27 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

This is probably why I'll be playing Piercing Fortress Europa when I have the time. Also, the latest MP game for Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941 called Smolensk is extremely tense with small number of counters.

Those that already have all the good Matrix games must also look elsewhere. I humbly suggest that once Steam starts its Summer Sale, check out Panzer Tactics HD and Battle Worlds Kronos. Unless you must have absolute historicity, these darn games are enjoyable as all heck and less of a grind than Panzer Corps. They are just a bit pricey right now.

Thanks for recommendations. Do we know any game like those (Panzer Corps, Panzer Tactics etc.) that allow unit stacks? I know Age of Wonders serie has that with up to 6 units per hex. Anything else?

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 20

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/20/2014 1:16:27 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 21

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/20/2014 1:37:40 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn.

warspite1

I don't necessarily agree its all down to counters. The actual numbers of counters is only part of the equation. ADG could double or more the number of counters (say more detailed land units) and it would not impact on my love of WIF, but it would take a re-design (simplification) of large parts of, for example, WITP-AE, to enable my enjoyment of that game. With the latter I am fine with the number of ships - I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 22

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/20/2014 8:06:02 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn.

To me it's about 2 levels of command down. So, it's about 20 units.

_____________________________

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 23

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/20/2014 11:17:41 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning.

But breakfast is the most important meal of the day

Ahh, you just don't want to cook every day

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 24

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/21/2014 5:42:42 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning.

But breakfast is the most important meal of the day

Ahh, you just don't want to cook every day

warspite1

Yes, you are right on both counts. When I spend my time slaving over a hot stove trying to feed millions of army, navy and airforce personnel, I could really do without Private whoever, deciding the porridge is too salty and they refuse to eat.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 25

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/27/2014 6:54:28 AM

trebcourie

Posts: 301
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East.

I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less.

With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario.

Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

Yep, which is why I say...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3629205

I would love CO on an operational level to fight the entire Eastern Front in WWII, Germany in WWIII Cold War, or the Pacific theater in WWII.

Commanders usually deal with 3-5 maneuver units. They make the big decisions. Their staffs handle the details.

I would love more of this in a wargame, with the ability to delve into the details when necessary -- just as a real commander can.

That, to me, is one of the beauties of Command Ops.

If someone could take that basic concept and apply it at an operational or strategic level, say on the East Front or in the Pacific, they'd have at least one loyal customer in me.

(in reply to flibby)

Post #: 26

RE: Counter Pushing Disease - 6/27/2014 9:57:09 AM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

If Arjuna could make a Command Ops for the war in the East it would be a lot easier and more fun to play just giving orders and lettting god and the subordinates sort them out.

(in reply to trebcourie)

Post #: 27