Counter Pushing Disease

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flibby -> Counter Pushing Disease (6/17/2014 7:48:27 PM)
I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span?

budd -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/17/2014 8:20:14 PM)
I feel your pain, as long as i can remember i've wanted to play these great concept monster games but have never really managed it successfully. I've come to grips with my limitations and stick to medium sized scenarios or campaigns or smaller, especially with counter pushing games. Part of its time and part of its patience and the rest is i'm not that good a commander above a certain unit number count .....ooooo and the rest is attention span[;)] I've pretty much stopped buying them. i try to remember these are games, there supposed to be fun. I don't know how many times i've opened the large games/scenarios up looked at it, maybe made a few moves and then i usually quit. command ops is about the only game where i can play a large scenario. My advice is don't worry about it and play whats fun for you. I do read all the AAR's of the monster games though and i'll start thinking about trying one again and then the idea of spending 2 to 3 hours on one turn hits me and i cringe....still....maybe one day. Have fun

Perturabo -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/17/2014 8:43:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flibby I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span? Personally, I just stopped playing micromanagement hell games.

KG Erwin -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 12:49:12 AM)
I feel much the same way about Schwerpunkt's "Russo-German War". There was a beautiful map mod that I downloaded which makes it pleasant to look at, but there is SO much micromanagement that it gets overwhelming. I even feel that way with the larger SPWaW scenarios. I suppose this is why I keep returning to AoE III, in which the population maximum is 200 (civilian & military units combined).

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 1:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flibby I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span? Maybe the game is not for you, that's all [:)] Anyway, is this vs the AI or PBEM? Since its release I played for 2 years [:)] three PBEM games (with AARs). A lot of fun. Still, I don't get why by november (41, I assume) you are not interested in moving those counters anymore. Hey, blizzard is around the corner. It's getting interesting... or sinister! [8D] I don't think it's a micro-management nightmare either (as I have said, 3 PBEMs under my belt). But maybe I say so because I keep playing since 2004 -no interruptions- WitP AE. And that IS indeed micro-management. Daily turns vs weekly turns (WitE). Maybe these massive operational games are not for you. Not bad per se, obviously. To each his own. I, on the other hand, never liked tactical games.

Rosseau -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 1:09:13 AM)
This is probably why I'll be playing Piercing Fortress Europa when I have the time. Also, the latest MP game for Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941 called Smolensk is extremely tense with small number of counters. Those that already have all the good Matrix games must also look elsewhere. I humbly suggest that once Steam starts its Summer Sale, check out Panzer Tactics HD and Battle Worlds Kronos. Unless you must have absolute historicity, these darn games are enjoyable as all heck and less of a grind than Panzer Corps. They are just a bit pricey right now.

rodney727 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 2:30:35 AM)
I enjoyed time of fury and that game is a counter pusher. After June 22nd the turns go from five minutes to 30 which is all I can take!

aaatoysandmore -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 7:25:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flibby I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span? Yeah, I suffer from it a lot now. After play Norbsoft's Command control type game where one can just be a commander if they want I don't care so much for button pushing counters around anymore. Command Ops is great for this as well. Besides it's too easy to exploit the ai when you have full control. Distant Worlds is more fun because there's no hexes and square shaped counters to move around one at a time.

warspite1 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 8:23:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flibby I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span? warspite1 I would agree with TD. Sounds like its just a case that the game is not for you. I also struggled with WITE (and WITP-AE). Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds".

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 12:21:59 PM)
Anyway he's giving some clues. Playing as Axis and getting tired when Barbarossa is over. November in the game is a mix of mud and snow. The Russian Bear is starting to gather forces, reserves. You have plenty of small scenarios: 1941 and 1942 German summer offensives, then the Soviet blows: 1943-44-45. And play as the player on the offensive. That should be your natural choice methinks [:)]

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 12:27:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds". One of these days I should give WIF a try. I never played the game. And I am pretty certain it is magnificent [8D]

Fred98 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 1:00:44 PM)
Given that in game "A" each unit has 3 variables, I like to micro manage those 3 variables. Given that in game "B" each unit has 20 variables, I like to micro manage those 20 variables. I like to play wargames via PBEM turns. Each turn should take 30 - 45 mins. Any longer and I am not interested. So, a wargame with few variables could have a larger number of counters. If it has lots of variables it must have a smaller number of counters. So, I loved Grisby's Uncommon Valour but I didn't get Grisby's War in the East. . .

Rosseau -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/18/2014 10:21:53 PM)
With the DLC's WitE isn't really a counter pusher, although the rules (and rules changes) are intimidating. I would consider it, Joe, if it went on sale for sure. My award for counterpusher of the decade is the newly released Fall Weiss by WI. There is absolutely nothing to do but push hundreds of counters, unlike Time of Fury. And the new HQ and Supply rules lose their meaning when nothing is explained in the manual or on the map. I pity the unwary on Steam :)

aaatoysandmore -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 1:14:52 AM)
Heh, you guys don't know what button pushing is until you have played "D-Day The beginning of the End" as that game has more button pushing than I've ever seen in a game before. Look it up, play it once if you dare.

barkman44 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 1:29:38 AM)
I don't care for the air model in wite so quit playing. am currently playing dc WtP and Case Blue and have PFE on the back burner.

zakblood -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 3:40:11 AM)
the game is far too hard for me also, it just put me off, i've played just about every war game there is, and been playing them now for almost 35+ years, it goes back on once a year or so, i patch it up, after i have loaded it, give it a spin for a day or 2 then re decided if its still for me or not, most years so far it's been a not, if i have nothing else to play at the time i may spend longer on it, but most of the time if anything else is out, i'd stick with that, not saying its a bad game either as some will love it, just very hardcore and something that i can't just get into atm, maybe when i'm older i may appreciate it more as i'm also sure it's me and not the game, time is never an issue when i play something, i just don't get a good feeling when i have played it, it's like fighting the real battle in real time, far too much to do for me, so it's a depth issue for me, i'd like it more if i was a few stages higher up, giving more overall command decisions and letting the AI take over some of the more basic stuff at lower levels... another 10 years on or so, i may amend this post [&o][&o][&o]

Rosseau -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 4:17:19 AM)
On the topic of WitE, I am wondering if World in Flames is even more complex - or not?

warspite1 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 4:28:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosseau On the topic of WitE, I am wondering if World in Flames is even more complex - or not? warspite1 I would say WIF IS complex - largely because many of the game concepts and mechanics are so different to other wargames both board and computer. Once you have mastered these though, the game is challenging and great fun in equal measure. There is never any sense of just "pushing counters around". There is so much to think about, so many decisions to make as to what to use, when etc. You need to co-ordinate land and air assets (and often naval assets too) for each attack/defence. A big, complex game, yes - but just sooooo much fun too.

gradenko2k -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 7:07:46 PM)
If you're playing the AI, just don't move any counters if you don't feel like there's anything compelling to be done. You're skipping the boring parts of the game while also making the game more interesting in the long run by giving the AI a leg-up.

Kuokkanen -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/19/2014 7:20:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosseau This is probably why I'll be playing Piercing Fortress Europa when I have the time. Also, the latest MP game for Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941 called Smolensk is extremely tense with small number of counters. Those that already have all the good Matrix games must also look elsewhere. I humbly suggest that once Steam starts its Summer Sale, check out Panzer Tactics HD and Battle Worlds Kronos. Unless you must have absolute historicity, these darn games are enjoyable as all heck and less of a grind than Panzer Corps. They are just a bit pricey right now. Thanks for recommendations. Do we know any game like those (Panzer Corps, Panzer Tactics etc.) that allow unit stacks? I know Age of Wonders serie has that with up to 6 units per hex. Anything else?

pzgndr -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/20/2014 1:16:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds". It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn.

warspite1 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/20/2014 1:37:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pzgndr quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds". It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn. warspite1 I don't necessarily agree its all down to counters. The actual numbers of counters is only part of the equation. ADG could double or more the number of counters (say more detailed land units) and it would not impact on my love of WIF, but it would take a re-design (simplification) of large parts of, for example, WITP-AE, to enable my enjoyment of that game. With the latter I am fine with the number of ships - I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning.

Perturabo -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/20/2014 8:06:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pzgndr quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Its not that a large number of counters or micro-management put me off as I love WIF. I can only assume its the game mechanics and type of micro-management that cause one game to "fail" whereas another game, with just as many counters and complexity "succeeds". It's more about what players can reasonably manage? 10's of counters is usually too few for most wargamers. 100's is optimum I'd say. Of course there are those grognards who seem to have the time and patience to manage 1,000's, but most folks with real lives and jobs and families cannot spend so much time completing a game turn. To me it's about 2 levels of command down. So, it's about 20 units.

Aurelian -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/20/2014 11:17:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning. But breakfast is the most important meal of the day [:)] Ahh, you just don't want to cook every day[:D]

warspite1 -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/21/2014 5:42:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I just don't want to be choosing which breakfast cereal to feed the crew every morning. But breakfast is the most important meal of the day [:)] Ahh, you just don't want to cook every day[:D] warspite1 Yes, you are right on both counts. When I spend my time slaving over a hot stove trying to feed millions of army, navy and airforce personnel, I could really do without Private whoever, deciding the porridge is too salty and they refuse to eat.

trebcourie -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/27/2014 6:54:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flibby I've been trying for the longest time to really get 'in to' War in the East. I absolutely love the concept of the game, and how it plays, but no matter how many times i try, i can't get past around November 1941 without feeling like i am just pushing around counters trying to get to the end of the turn. I'll start a new session with renewed enthusiasm but end up moving some Romanian donkey troops around like i couldn't care less. With a came like Command Ops or Graviteam Tactics i don't get the same issue and it's always gripped me until the end of the scenario. Does anyone else suffer from this? Any workaround beyond a longer attention span? Yep, which is why I say... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3629205 I would love CO on an operational level to fight the entire Eastern Front in WWII, Germany in WWIII Cold War, or the Pacific theater in WWII. Commanders usually deal with 3-5 maneuver units. They make the big decisions. Their staffs handle the details. I would love more of this in a wargame, with the ability to delve into the details when necessary -- just as a real commander can. That, to me, is one of the beauties of Command Ops. If someone could take that basic concept and apply it at an operational or strategic level, say on the East Front or in the Pacific, they'd have at least one loyal customer in me.

aaatoysandmore -> RE: Counter Pushing Disease (6/27/2014 9:57:09 AM)
If Arjuna could make a Command Ops for the war in the East it would be a lot easier and more fun to play just giving orders and lettting god and the subordinates sort them out.

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