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RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 10:36:02 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Currently testing the weapon balance changes mentioned here for the Wednesday July 9th update (via the research.txt and components.txt files).

Weapons Balancing

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 61
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 11:06:42 AM   
PsyKoSnake


Posts: 111
Joined: 1/25/2012
Status: offline 		Watch out IceMania! If you continu like this.
In not time, you will make a balance mod with 200 tech, 25 new race and stronger AI, better UI and better graphic.

;)

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 62
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 11:12:00 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		LOL, happy to leave graphics / UI / new technology trees to others, much more interested in the AI and mechanics!


(in reply to PsyKoSnake)
Post #: 63
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 11:32:59 AM   
Tcby


Posts: 342
Joined: 12/16/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I just opened your exel file for the first time...WOW


(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 64
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/5/2014 12:38:01 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Did somebody say they like to exterminate bugs? Don't worry the feeling is mutual!



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/5/2014 1:38:12 PM >

(in reply to Tcby)
Post #: 65
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 11:48:45 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		It looks like the AI default for Military Ships is to "Standoff" with Stronger Opponents and "All Weapons" with Weaker Opponents.

Instead for races primarily using long-range weapons I'd like to set them to Standoff. While for races primarily using short-range weapons I'd like to set them to Point Blank. This would have a massive impact on ensuring the AI chooses the appropriate strategy.

Is there any way this can be configured?

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 66
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 12:01:35 PM   
xepooqu80

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline 		Quick observation from a pre-warp game i started this morning playing as Quameno.

- I researched Damage Control and for some reasons it is not added to any designs
- I have found the death ray weapon and it seems to be far superior weapon from the long-range lasers i have right now for bigger ships/bases at least.
Is there a way to force my fleet to use such superweapon if found in their automatic designs?


(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 67
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 12:37:37 PM   
Franky007


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline 		I only see the setting DefaultMilitaryFleeWhen in Policy file.

We should ask for two new settings: one for attack and retreat in EACH ship template.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 68
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 12:45:37 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni

Quick observation from a pre-warp game i started this morning playing as Quameno.

- I researched Damage Control and for some reasons it is not added to any designs
- I have found the death ray weapon and it seems to be far superior weapon from the long-range lasers i have right now for bigger ships/bases at least.
Is there a way to force my fleet to use such superweapon if found in their automatic designs?


Hey acantoni!

Tormodino has highlighted the Damage Control bug in Tech Support.

I don't know how to force your fleet to use a Super Beam Weapon without including it in their Design Templates. The Large Spaceport Design Templates have a Super Beam Weapon ... does it eventually retrofit with this included?

That said, in the Capital Ship Design Templates I could include a Super Beam Weapon (it's very large in size) but you won't see it until very late game.



(in reply to xepooqu80)
Post #: 69
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 3:51:27 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Francoy
We should ask for two new settings: one for attack and retreat in EACH ship template.

Great idea!

(in reply to Franky007)
Post #: 70
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 3:58:30 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		In the Wednesday update I'll include the Humans, Kiadian and Ikkuro as well as the Weapon Balance changes. The image below is from a test game. I knew giving the Kiadian a Torpedo focus was a bad idea, those 5 Size 600 ships just wiped out my home system.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/6/2014 4:58:41 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 71
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/6/2014 4:30:21 PM   
Sindri

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/1/2014
Status: offline 		This seems to be great, I will test it during next week and give back some feedback later on :) Current AI struggles with economy, so maybe add them some commerce centres upgrades and make them build more small space ports so they won't lose so much money on untaxed trade. Is it possible with current mod tools? :)

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 72
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/7/2014 11:16:51 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Thanks Sindri.

I'll have a look at Small Spaceports.

If Commerce Centre were improved that would also benefit human players and I expect the AI would spend more anyway. Bump up the difficulty I would suggest!

(in reply to Sindri)
Post #: 73
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/7/2014 8:09:33 PM   
sayke

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/26/2013
Status: offline 		Icemania - Bloody fantastic work! Are you confidant that Elliot etc are seeing your bugfix/feature requests and building them into the pipeline for the next patch? I really hope so, because they act as significant force multipliers, giving modders like yourself and others the opportunity to really extend and balance the game in ways that they couldn't do with the resources they have!

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 74
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 9:55:18 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sayke
Icemania - Bloody fantastic work! Are you confidant that Elliot etc are seeing your bugfix/feature requests and building them into the pipeline for the next patch? I really hope so, because they act as significant force multipliers, giving modders like yourself and others the opportunity to really extend and balance the game in ways that they couldn't do with the resources they have!

I've sent a PM to Elliot and Erik about various issues that have come up in this thread. I wouldn't have even started this mod if Elliot and Erik had not implemented the ability to modify the AI Research Build Orders. Hopefully when Elliot returns he'll consider them!


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/8/2014 3:04:15 PM >

(in reply to sayke)
Post #: 75
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 12:01:21 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		From the latest update you can find in the OP ...

Did someone say Fighters were supplementary?



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< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/8/2014 3:04:06 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 76
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 2:03:08 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Haakonish Gravitic Weapons in a test game for the next update



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/8/2014 5:03:09 PM >

(in reply to sayke)
Post #: 77
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 2:04:12 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Here is an example of one of the topics I've asked Elliot and Erik to consider. Capital Ships are designed to be big ... Size 1100. Sometimes the AI goes overboard with shrinkage like this Capital Ship which is half the normal size with no weapons. I really shouldn't be able to build them until higher Construction Sizes are available. Have to be careful here though, the shrinkage is very useful early game with the larger designs I'm using.



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< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/8/2014 5:13:19 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 78
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 3:41:40 PM   
t1it

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		Lol this mod is going to be so epic. In my current Boskara game (no pirates), Atuuk is systematically bombarding the crap out of them. Boskara has -50k income, much of it from from ships & bases maintenance costs. Boskara is currently crippled both economically and militarily.
A few observations:
- They have 42 explorers each with 800 maintenance and it's mid game with half of the map explored already and almost none of them have actual missions.
- Boskara capital is also only 4.5k population and currently taxing 35%. I'd expect 15k pop by now and 55% tax hmm...I didn't see how they taxed in the early game but (unnecessary) high tax has to be a significant factor to why their capital is currently underpopulated (because they do have a base 24% growth rate...)Maybe it got bombarded by the Mortalen when I wasn't looking but that's unlikely as they were winning the war against Mortalen until the Atuuk started their (entertaining) genocide-crusade.
- They're colonizing way too aggressively. I see them colonize a new planet every IRL two minute at 4x speed but their economy is nowhere enough to sustain all this expansion.
- Right now, they have two military ships despite fighting two losing wars. Those expensive and useless explorers needs to be disbanded. I'm going to intervene for this.
- Those two ships are capital ships with velocity shards & terminator auto cannons - even though they're almost done researching the last tech of their special weapon... is this intended?

Back to the game. Probably soon going to end as the atuuk seems determined to put an end to the boskara.



< Message edited by wasa -- 7/8/2014 4:41:47 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 79
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 4:02:17 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wasa
- They have 42 explorers each with 800 maintenance and it's mid game with half of the map explored already and almost none of them have actual missions.

This is probably another one for Elliot. I think it's essential to have strong exploration early and it's been great to see the AI's with Super Weapons and Super Governments. But I agree they should start to disband as the map gets more fully explored ... nothing I can do in the Policy files.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wasa
- Boskara capital is also only 4.5k population and currently taxing 35%. I'd expect 15k pop by now and 55% tax hmm...I didn't see how they taxed in the early game but (unnecessary) high tax has to be a significant factor to why their capital is currently underpopulated (because they do have a base 24% growth rate...)Maybe it got bombarded by the Mortalen when I wasn't looking but that's unlikely as they were winning the war against Mortalen until the Atuuk started their (entertaining) genocide-crusade.

What settings? The only change I've made to tax is for the AI to apply zero tax on medium populations worlds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wasa
- They're colonizing way too aggressively. I see them colonize a new planet every IRL two minute at 4x speed but their economy is nowhere enough to sustain all this expansion.

Not much I can suggest here other than increase the difficulty to give the other AI more cash (obviously the AI race you are watching will have less though).

quote:

ORIGINAL: wasa
- Those two ships are capital ships with velocity shards & terminator auto cannons - even though they're almost done researching the last tech of their special weapon... is this intended?

All the Boskaran Design Templates are focused on Shaktur Firestorms as is the Weapons Research Order. Could you please more information and I'll have a closer look?

(in reply to t1it)
Post #: 80
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/8/2014 6:14:58 PM   
t1it

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, I don't have any save game of that session
But they had 3 different capital ship designs, all with non-shaktur firestorms, a cruiser design - dito. Think only the frigate & escort designs had their special weapon. I'm actually not sure they had researched velocity shard or terminator autocannon...IIRC correctly, they had not. Looked to me they had only researched their special weapon as the only weapon focus. So Idk what was going.
My setting was Huge 1400 stars / 15 x 15 sectors, pre-warp, restless, hard difficulty, no pirates and the rest normal.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 81
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/9/2014 11:32:51 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		All I can say wasa is that I've checked the design templates as well as the research orders and builds in-game.

Please keep in mind hard difficulty will make life tougher for the race you are playing on full auto.

I'm sure there are some errors particularly given I'm still tinkering so please let me know if you get more information so I can fault find.

(in reply to t1it)
Post #: 82
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/9/2014 1:00:48 PM   
xepooqu80

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline 		Awesome work and ready to test the new version!

Btw though i would strongly recommend to use Icemania's file i did a little exercise and trying to adapt DW Extended files to make it compatible:

Procedure is simple - use it at your risk if you can't play without dw extended for some reason (of course Extended race do not benefit from Icemania's work yet)
Install DW Extended mod
Copy over and overwrite with Icemania file
replace components.txt and research.txt with those (link removed)
NO guarantees it will work for you, again i recommend you just use Icemania's file for testing

EDIT: Upon further testing it allows the game to launch but there are incompatibilities, link have been removed

Regarding the mod itself i am trying a test game with Quameno and they are doing great!
@Icemania i see there is lot of focus In Energy for Shields and Reactor and none for Hyperdrives,Engine,Thruster.. in your experience isn't a faster hyperdrive at least an asset?


< Message edited by acantoni -- 7/9/2014 3:16:06 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 83
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/9/2014 6:06:54 PM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline 		Have you done any work with the Pirate templates?

Darkspire



_____________________________

Darkspires's File Repository

(in reply to xepooqu80)
Post #: 84
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/10/2014 7:33:14 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I plan to but just some tinkering at this stage e.g. I put a few of the new ship templates in the Pirate templates just to check it worked. I do worry that the extra maintenance costs of the larger ship may create a handicap for the Pirates. Have you done some testing here Darkspire?






(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 85
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/10/2014 7:43:40 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: acantoni
i see there is lot of focus In Energy for Shields and Reactor and none for Hyperdrives,Engine,Thruster.. in your experience isn't a faster hyperdrive at least an asset?

These technologies run a couple of tiers behind. There is research in those fields to mid-tier technology but it is later in the research queue. It really becomes a judgement call on what provides the greater benefit and when. That said I'm still tinkering with the orders so if you think a change will improve the AI by all means let me know why in comparison to what would need to be dropped down the queue.

The research orders are customised by race to ensure special technologies get the appropriate focus, to focus on their weapons preference, and to reflect their wonder focus. For example, the Dhayut get their special VelocityDrive soon after Size 500 Construction Research is complete etc.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/10/2014 8:44:03 AM >

(in reply to xepooqu80)
Post #: 86
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/10/2014 12:11:17 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I'm having a tinker with the Bias files.

My current idea is to increase positive and negative biases (without going overboard) with the races split into 4 groups (ensuring each group uses a variety of weapons).

By increasing the positive biases for races within a group they are more likely to form Mutual Defence Pacts. With the changes to fleet coordination in Universe this should mean more mega fleet battles.

Each group has negative biases set against another group, so they are more likely to go to war i.e. Group 1 v Group 2, Group 3 v Group 4. I've had to many games in the past where nobody declared war even on Chaos throughout the entire game. So now, if you decide to take a back seat and your partners go down, you could then be facing a strong alliance of opponents, without as much support ...


(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 87
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/10/2014 3:33:47 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		The last time I invaded the Ancient Guardian and Shakturi homeworlds I didn't loose a ship. After these upgrades it will be a bit more difficult!!!



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/10/2014 4:33:16 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 88
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/10/2014 4:07:31 PM   
PsyKoSnake


Posts: 111
Joined: 1/25/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

I'm having a tinker with the Bias files.

My current idea is to increase positive and negative biases (without going overboard) with the races split into 4 groups (ensuring each group uses a variety of weapons).

By increasing the positive biases for races within a group they are more likely to form Mutual Defence Pacts. With the changes to fleet coordination in Universe this should mean more mega fleet battles.

Each group has negative biases set against another group, so they are more likely to go to war i.e. Group 1 v Group 2, Group 3 v Group 4. I've had to many games in the past where nobody declared war even on Chaos throughout the entire game. So now, if you decide to take a back seat and your partners go down, you could then be facing a strong alliance of opponents, without as much support ...




I approve that.

An idea: I think reducing war wearness for each race would be more benefical for the AI.
The best would be normal war wearness for the player and maybe -50% to -75% or 100%(no war wearness at all) for AI. But I dont think there is a way to achieve this easily without going in the race file, for each new game (change your last game race for the new setting and change back to normal setting the one you use in the new game.)

Would be easier for the AI to be in war for a long periode without hurting aproval, economy, etc.

What do you think?

Will help testing your change soon, because I am realy interested to help improving the AI. (Did not play since 3 week)

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 89
RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) - 7/11/2014 12:15:34 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		There is no way I can see to do that without also giving the same advantage to a human player of that race or the manual method you've suggested.

Note that I'm not introducing any new artificial advantages for the AI, just helping them to better use what is available.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/11/2014 10:05:18 AM >

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)
Post #: 90
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