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MacArthur - 7/19/2014 7:52:06 AM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		Let me apologize. I am writing this while on pain meds so I an having issues trying to put together words. So bear that in mind if I fail to make sense.
I have been trying to find any discussion on this in the forums with no luck - pain meds again

How is MacArthur handled. I know there is s USAFFE leader and a Southwest Pacific which come in later.

Do I have to get Mac out of the Philippines or is he removed automatically by the game?.
What happens if he is killed or captured before the later Mac is received? Can he refuse FDR's to get out?

As a side question do leaders get promotions in rank?

jbdenney
Post #: 1
RE: MacArthur - 7/19/2014 8:55:09 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.

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(in reply to jbdenney)
Post #: 2
RE: MacArthur - 7/19/2014 2:45:10 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Imagine if there had been 2 of him in reality.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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Post #: 3
RE: MacArthur - 7/19/2014 9:49:31 PM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Imagine if there had been 2 of him in reality.


Yeah, his wife will be very "happy".

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Post #: 4
RE: MacArthur - 7/19/2014 11:17:17 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		You may be better off without "Dugout Doug"!!

(in reply to czert2)
Post #: 5
RE: MacArthur - 7/20/2014 3:14:30 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		I got a huge grin when (as Allied) I 1st heard the 'Orphan Ann' reports. IMO the game would be much improved, if IJN players would receive an ocaisional sample of a MacArthur msg.

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Post #: 6
RE: MacArthur - 7/20/2014 11:16:47 PM   
Rexor

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: The Oort Cloud
Status: offline 		While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

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Post #: 7
RE: MacArthur - 7/20/2014 11:37:02 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.



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Post #: 8
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 3:40:32 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		What he tried to do to Wainwright was and remains unforgivable, let alone all the other folks on Bataan.

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Post #: 9
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 6:19:34 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 7/21/2014 7:45:32 AM >

(in reply to Rexor)
Post #: 10
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 1:49:13 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor

While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?



Just leave him in command of his HQ (southwest Pacific). He is a good commander and it cost a hell of a lot of PPs to move him out.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Rexor)
Post #: 11
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 1:51:54 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.


_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 12
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 2:17:28 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Crsutton, at some point in the game isn't the Bataan version of him get withdrawn?

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Post #: 13
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 9:00:10 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???

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Post #: 14
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 10:30:25 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		What makes a flag officer's career has more to do with their staff than their own brilliance, though picking a good staff does reflect on their wisdom. I once read about Patton's staff. When he set out to put one together, he found staff officers who were too unconventional to get along on other staffs and recruited them. They constantly thought outside the box and enabled his units to do great things.

MacArthur had some brilliant staff officers too. SW Pac was full of unconventional people. His operations in New Guinea and New Britain were outstanding feats of logistics and planning. He was overly obsessed with taking back the Philippines, which strategically wasn't necessary. As occupational governor of Japan, he (or someone on his staff) recognized how Japanese society revolved around the emperor and he decided to work that to his advantage. The occupation of Japan was extremely successful with various functions like policing being handed over to civilian control with few problems on an earlier time schedule than most occupations do.

He did turn around the situation in Korea when the UN troops were crammed into the southern tip of the peninsula. However, Mac's massive ego was his eventual downfall.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 15
RE: MacArthur - 7/21/2014 10:47:07 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		I do recall one of his last speeches - something to the effect that "Old soldiers never die, they just fade into being a God".

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Post #: 16
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 6:56:24 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		??

I don't see Macarthurs SWPacific campaign as anything amazing and many of his staff were self seeking sycophants.

Many of his successes were based on the excellence of his subordinates like Kenney, Eichelberger and his Australian Allies plus the doggedness of his GI's, Marines & Diggers.

Having overwhelming Air and Sea power gave him an ability to strike wherever he planned and provided support in some touchy situations.

However, I like his strategy in landing on Leyte and at Lingayen Gulf, he probably worked on this for the whole time after he left Bataan. A Japan invasion would have proven his ability to be rated against commanders such as Eisenhower & Bradley, running a campaign with a number of Armies under his command.

Leave him on Bataan!!

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Post #: 17
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 7:23:36 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???



A nice piece of work but that does not make up for the disaster that followed. Or, for disobeying orders. MacArthur was not all bad or not all good, but it is the end game that matters and he blew that.


_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 18
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 9:43:34 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.


The movie "Emperor" was pretty good. Started with macs arrival in Japan. GP


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(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 19
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 10:32:29 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.



Ahem ... Big Mac had the fore knowledge from Ultra as to where the Japanese garrisons were. So hit them where they ain't was easy. Being successful when you know the enemy's plans does no take a a genius. Now his gamble at Inchon is and was a masterpiece, but then the fates took it away at the Yalu river. He was awarded 7 silver stars, 3 distinguished service crosses, 5 distinguished service medals, a bronze start and 2 purple hearts (this is a short list). The man was no coward and calling him "Dugout Doug" is a slur on the man and the uniform. He fubar'd in the PI big time when he didn't put enough supplies on Bataan and ordered his air force to be grouped together. All in all MacArthur was a better than average general but not lucky, and Napoleon demanded his generals be lucky.


_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 20
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 10:51:42 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I'm no fan of MacArthur. I think feeding his massive ego was always his first priority. However, he did pull off some pretty big successes. I was reading about Operation Cartwheel the other day. It was a massively complex amphibious operation, one of the most complex in history. The reason we don't hear much about it is because it went off with barely a hitch. True he was up against depleted and isolated Japanese garrisons, but they were depleted and isolated in large part due to his air and sea (mostly PT boats) assets under his command.

I give credit where it's due, even if I don't like the person I'm giving the credit to.

Because MacArthur did have many successes as well as a lot of stumbles, he's a very controversial historical figure. There is no simple summation of the guy's record.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 21
RE: MacArthur - 7/22/2014 11:03:04 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 22
RE: MacArthur - 7/23/2014 12:51:13 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.


The movie "Emperor" was pretty good. Started with macs arrival in Japan. GP



I think you and I were the only posters on this forum that saw the unpopular flic.


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Post #: 23
RE: MacArthur - 7/23/2014 7:18:55 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.



Ahem ... Big Mac had the fore knowledge from Ultra as to where the Japanese garrisons were. So hit them where they ain't was easy. Being successful when you know the enemy's plans does no take a a genius. Now his gamble at Inchon is and was a masterpiece, but then the fates took it away at the Yalu river. He was awarded 7 silver stars, 3 distinguished service crosses, 5 distinguished service medals, a bronze start and 2 purple hearts (this is a short list). The man was no coward and calling him "Dugout Doug" is a slur on the man and the uniform. He fubar'd in the PI big time when he didn't put enough supplies on Bataan and ordered his air force to be grouped together. All in all MacArthur was a better than average general but not lucky, and Napoleon demanded his generals be lucky.


No "ultra" in the Pacific, it was "Magic" at hign level and JN-25 or Japanese Fleet Code which gave more tactical info.
Allied intelligence gathering was rather poor, a lot guessed from Aerial Recon which led to a number of potentially disastrous situations. The ease in obtaining Air & Naval support, plus the superior firepower of Allied ground forces got them through.

While Macs list of medals is impressive, most were earned in WW1, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 7/23/2014 8:23:08 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: MacArthur - 7/23/2014 11:56:49 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.



I think you are misinformed that the WHOLE New Guinea that he was in the Land of Oz. Because Nimitz wasn't in the first wave a Tarawa he was a coward? In Wiki, if you want to believe it, it says he moved his HQ to Port Moresby in November of 1942. Dude if you don't like Yanks just say so, instead of making up stuff about MacArthur just to look like you know history.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 25
RE: MacArthur - 7/24/2014 12:32:09 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Ok, here is a story I heard at West Point. When Mac was at the Point as a cadet, his Mother stayed at the Thayer? Hotel for the duration.

Then, when he was Supe, his Mother stayed at the Supe's House for the duration.

I didn't fact check the story...I like it too much.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 26
RE: MacArthur - 7/24/2014 12:46:49 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.


I kind of like Kimmel. He gets treated favorably in John Costello's The Pacific War book from 1981. For what that is worth.

There has been a movement,on and off again, to rehabilitate his reputation (Kimmels).

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 27
RE: MacArthur - 7/24/2014 6:25:42 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???



Worse, Yalu.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 28
RE: MacArthur - 7/24/2014 6:33:44 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.



I think you are misinformed that the WHOLE New Guinea that he was in the Land of Oz. Because Nimitz wasn't in the first wave a Tarawa he was a coward? In Wiki, if you want to believe it, it says he moved his HQ to Port Moresby in November of 1942. Dude if you don't like Yanks just say so, instead of making up stuff about MacArthur just to look like you know history.

I dont like some Americans, happy.

Advance HQ doesnt mean that Dougout Doug did more than visit. Not questioning courage, just competence.

When did Macarthur make Port Moresby or Lae Or Hollandia his base of operations. Sometime in 1944 just before he moved to The Phillipines

Exactly what was made up????

I also looked at what he did to win 7 Silver Stars, far less than your average Tommy, Poilu, Landser or Digger. I dont doubt his courage, but it appears that even in WW1 he appears to have got special treatment. As for his Bronze Star for landing on Leyte, thats a joke as is IMHO the Medal of Honour he was awarded.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 7/24/2014 7:43:19 AM >

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Post #: 29
RE: MacArthur - 7/24/2014 1:19:36 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.


I kind of like Kimmel. He gets treated favorably in John Costello's The Pacific War book from 1981. For what that is worth.

There has been a movement,on and off again, to rehabilitate his reputation (Kimmels).


Kimmel gets a break for not actually getting warnings of the pending attack.

MacArthur doesn't. He's informed of Pearl Harbour, he does nothing. He's ordered to execute Rainbow Five, he does nothing. Then, the Japanese bomb out Clark Field and doom the Philippines.

What's worse is that he then takes a big bribe, along with the rest of his staff, from Quezon.

If MacArthur had been denied another command after the Philippines, his public image would be very, very different.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 30
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