MacArthur (Full Version)

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jbdenney -> MacArthur (7/19/2014 7:52:06 AM)

Let me apologize. I am writing this while on pain meds so I an having issues trying to put together words. So bear that in mind if I fail to make sense.
I have been trying to find any discussion on this in the forums with no luck - pain meds again

How is MacArthur handled. I know there is s USAFFE leader and a Southwest Pacific which come in later.

Do I have to get Mac out of the Philippines or is he removed automatically by the game?.
What happens if he is killed or captured before the later Mac is received? Can he refuse FDR's to get out?

As a side question do leaders get promotions in rank?

jbdenney



Sardaukar -> RE: MacArthur (7/19/2014 8:55:09 AM)

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.



tocaff -> RE: MacArthur (7/19/2014 2:45:10 PM)

Imagine if there had been 2 of him in reality. [X(]



czert2 -> RE: MacArthur (7/19/2014 9:49:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Imagine if there had been 2 of him in reality. [X(]


Yeah, his wife will be very "happy".



pontiouspilot -> RE: MacArthur (7/19/2014 11:17:17 PM)

You may be better off without "Dugout Doug"!!



jmalter -> RE: MacArthur (7/20/2014 3:14:30 PM)

I got a huge grin when (as Allied) I 1st heard the 'Orphan Ann' reports. IMO the game would be much improved, if IJN players would receive an ocaisional sample of a MacArthur msg.



Rexor -> RE: MacArthur (7/20/2014 11:16:47 PM)

While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?



Big B -> RE: MacArthur (7/20/2014 11:37:02 PM)

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




dr.hal -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 3:40:32 AM)

What he tried to do to Wainwright was and remains unforgivable, let alone all the other folks on Bataan.



jmalter -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 6:19:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.



crsutton -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 1:49:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor

While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?



Just leave him in command of his HQ (southwest Pacific). He is a good commander and it cost a hell of a lot of PPs to move him out.



crsutton -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 1:51:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.



dr.hal -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 2:17:28 PM)

Crsutton, at some point in the game isn't the Bataan version of him get withdrawn?



rustysi -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 9:00:10 PM)

quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???[sm=00000289.gif]



wdolson -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 10:30:25 PM)

What makes a flag officer's career has more to do with their staff than their own brilliance, though picking a good staff does reflect on their wisdom. I once read about Patton's staff. When he set out to put one together, he found staff officers who were too unconventional to get along on other staffs and recruited them. They constantly thought outside the box and enabled his units to do great things.

MacArthur had some brilliant staff officers too. SW Pac was full of unconventional people. His operations in New Guinea and New Britain were outstanding feats of logistics and planning. He was overly obsessed with taking back the Philippines, which strategically wasn't necessary. As occupational governor of Japan, he (or someone on his staff) recognized how Japanese society revolved around the emperor and he decided to work that to his advantage. The occupation of Japan was extremely successful with various functions like policing being handed over to civilian control with few problems on an earlier time schedule than most occupations do.

He did turn around the situation in Korea when the UN troops were crammed into the southern tip of the peninsula. However, Mac's massive ego was his eventual downfall.

Bill



DD696 -> RE: MacArthur (7/21/2014 10:47:07 PM)

I do recall one of his last speeches - something to the effect that "Old soldiers never die, they just fade into being a God".



JeffroK -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 6:56:24 AM)

??

I don't see Macarthurs SWPacific campaign as anything amazing and many of his staff were self seeking sycophants.

Many of his successes were based on the excellence of his subordinates like Kenney, Eichelberger and his Australian Allies plus the doggedness of his GI's, Marines & Diggers.

Having overwhelming Air and Sea power gave him an ability to strike wherever he planned and provided support in some touchy situations.

However, I like his strategy in landing on Leyte and at Lingayen Gulf, he probably worked on this for the whole time after he left Bataan. A Japan invasion would have proven his ability to be rated against commanders such as Eisenhower & Bradley, running a campaign with a number of Armies under his command.

Leave him on Bataan!!



crsutton -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 7:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???[sm=00000289.gif]



A nice piece of work but that does not make up for the disaster that followed. Or, for disobeying orders. MacArthur was not all bad or not all good, but it is the end game that matters and he blew that.



btd64 -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 9:43:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.


The movie "Emperor" was pretty good. Started with macs arrival in Japan. GP



Capt Cliff -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 10:32:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.



Ahem ... Big Mac had the fore knowledge from Ultra as to where the Japanese garrisons were. So hit them where they ain't was easy. Being successful when you know the enemy's plans does no take a a genius. Now his gamble at Inchon is and was a masterpiece, but then the fates took it away at the Yalu river. He was awarded 7 silver stars, 3 distinguished service crosses, 5 distinguished service medals, a bronze start and 2 purple hearts (this is a short list). The man was no coward and calling him "Dugout Doug" is a slur on the man and the uniform. He fubar'd in the PI big time when he didn't put enough supplies on Bataan and ordered his air force to be grouped together. All in all MacArthur was a better than average general but not lucky, and Napoleon demanded his generals be lucky.



wdolson -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 10:51:42 PM)

I'm no fan of MacArthur. I think feeding his massive ego was always his first priority. However, he did pull off some pretty big successes. I was reading about Operation Cartwheel the other day. It was a massively complex amphibious operation, one of the most complex in history. The reason we don't hear much about it is because it went off with barely a hitch. True he was up against depleted and isolated Japanese garrisons, but they were depleted and isolated in large part due to his air and sea (mostly PT boats) assets under his command.

I give credit where it's due, even if I don't like the person I'm giving the credit to.

Because MacArthur did have many successes as well as a lot of stumbles, he's a very controversial historical figure. There is no simple summation of the guy's record.

Bill



mind_messing -> RE: MacArthur (7/22/2014 11:03:04 PM)

It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.



Joe D. -> RE: MacArthur (7/23/2014 12:51:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
While we're on the subject, how important is a figure like MacArthur when high-up leaders don't seem to make a big impact on the game? I mean, where would I put him to make the most use of his abilities?

Well IMO, I've usually kept Mac in Townsville, & have never used his 2nd appearance as an actual combat HQ, but only as a CommandHQ to facilitate Oz/US ToE upgrades.

MacArthur the man will continue to be an enigmatic figure for many more years, & for many more books!

My current take is, that his suzerienty over conquered Japan, beginning in August '45 & ending perhaps 4 months into the Korean conflict, was the best service he gave his nation. So I'd guess that in WITP terms, he'd do best w/ Admin skills.


The movie "Emperor" was pretty good. Started with macs arrival in Japan. GP



I think you and I were the only posters on this forum that saw the unpopular flic.



JeffroK -> RE: MacArthur (7/23/2014 7:18:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes - he is duplicated. So no worries about successfully rescuing him from the Philippines.

As for Mac' the General and the man - MacArthur has been the center of a storm on this forum for at least 10 years that I know of. Folks like him or disparage him... it depends chiefly on their generation and what they have read about him (and by whom). So you'll never get a consensus on the man himself Here.
In game turns - you definitely want to use him.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mac is duplicated. So even if you leave him to PI, he will reappear as SWPAC commander.




Not a lot of regard her for him as a man or commander for that matter. His folly in Korea is legendary. However, to his credit, his strategy in the South West Pacific was for the most part flawless, and should be considered the high point of his career.



Ahem ... Big Mac had the fore knowledge from Ultra as to where the Japanese garrisons were. So hit them where they ain't was easy. Being successful when you know the enemy's plans does no take a a genius. Now his gamble at Inchon is and was a masterpiece, but then the fates took it away at the Yalu river. He was awarded 7 silver stars, 3 distinguished service crosses, 5 distinguished service medals, a bronze start and 2 purple hearts (this is a short list). The man was no coward and calling him "Dugout Doug" is a slur on the man and the uniform. He fubar'd in the PI big time when he didn't put enough supplies on Bataan and ordered his air force to be grouped together. All in all MacArthur was a better than average general but not lucky, and Napoleon demanded his generals be lucky.


No "ultra" in the Pacific, it was "Magic" at hign level and JN-25 or Japanese Fleet Code which gave more tactical info.
Allied intelligence gathering was rather poor, a lot guessed from Aerial Recon which led to a number of potentially disastrous situations. The ease in obtaining Air & Naval support, plus the superior firepower of Allied ground forces got them through.

While Macs list of medals is impressive, most were earned in WW1, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.



Capt Cliff -> RE: MacArthur (7/23/2014 11:56:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.



I think you are misinformed that the WHOLE New Guinea that he was in the Land of Oz. Because Nimitz wasn't in the first wave a Tarawa he was a coward? In Wiki, if you want to believe it, it says he moved his HQ to Port Moresby in November of 1942. Dude if you don't like Yanks just say so, instead of making up stuff about MacArthur just to look like you know history. [8|]



Lowpe -> RE: MacArthur (7/24/2014 12:32:09 AM)

Ok, here is a story I heard at West Point. When Mac was at the Point as a cadet, his Mother stayed at the Thayer? Hotel for the duration.

Then, when he was Supe, his Mother stayed at the Supe's House for the duration.

I didn't fact check the story...I like it too much.[:D]



Lowpe -> RE: MacArthur (7/24/2014 12:46:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.


I kind of like Kimmel. He gets treated favorably in John Costello's The Pacific War book from 1981. For what that is worth.

There has been a movement,on and off again, to rehabilitate his reputation (Kimmels).



Chris21wen -> RE: MacArthur (7/24/2014 6:25:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

His folly in Korea is legendary


Inchon???[sm=00000289.gif]



Worse, Yalu.



JeffroK -> RE: MacArthur (7/24/2014 6:33:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

, in WW2 he fought his New Guinea campaign from Melbourne and Brisbane, thousands of miles from the front line.



I think you are misinformed that the WHOLE New Guinea that he was in the Land of Oz. Because Nimitz wasn't in the first wave a Tarawa he was a coward? In Wiki, if you want to believe it, it says he moved his HQ to Port Moresby in November of 1942. Dude if you don't like Yanks just say so, instead of making up stuff about MacArthur just to look like you know history. [8|]

I dont like some Americans, happy.

Advance HQ doesnt mean that Dougout Doug did more than visit. Not questioning courage, just competence.

When did Macarthur make Port Moresby or Lae Or Hollandia his base of operations. Sometime in 1944 just before he moved to The Phillipines

Exactly what was made up????

I also looked at what he did to win 7 Silver Stars, far less than your average Tommy, Poilu, Landser or Digger. I dont doubt his courage, but it appears that even in WW1 he appears to have got special treatment. As for his Bronze Star for landing on Leyte, thats a joke as is IMHO the Medal of Honour he was awarded.



mind_messing -> RE: MacArthur (7/24/2014 1:19:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's worth remembering that if MacArthur hadn't been given another command after the Philippines, he'd be remembered in much the same light as Kimmel.


I kind of like Kimmel. He gets treated favorably in John Costello's The Pacific War book from 1981. For what that is worth.

There has been a movement,on and off again, to rehabilitate his reputation (Kimmels).


Kimmel gets a break for not actually getting warnings of the pending attack.

MacArthur doesn't. He's informed of Pearl Harbour, he does nothing. He's ordered to execute Rainbow Five, he does nothing. Then, the Japanese bomb out Clark Field and doom the Philippines.

What's worse is that he then takes a big bribe, along with the rest of his staff, from Quezon.

If MacArthur had been denied another command after the Philippines, his public image would be very, very different.



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