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AI Questions - 7/25/2014 2:04:38 PM

greenrebellion

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/25/2014
Status: offline

So let me preface this by saying that I have followed this game for quite a while as I have had an interest in 4x games for as long as I can remember and Distant Worlds certainly stands out as one of the most complex and deepest experiences. With the release of Universe and its combining of expansions I have become more serious about purchasing the game. Despite having never played the game, I do have a pretty good grasp on it as I have read the manual, read the forums for quite a while, and watched numerous youtube "let's play" videos. My one primary concern and the reason I have yet to purchase the game is AI competency.

Now it goes without saying that programming AI in a game this complex is a tall order, especially given limited programming resources. I don't need the AI to be a genius and wow me with their tactical play, but at a minimum I need the AI to throw me a curve every once in a while. It looks like recent patches have certainly gone a long way in improving this aspect of the game and icemania even has an early stage AI mod in development which is great to see. But I still think back to posts from a year or two ago which describe the AI as completely inept. In addition, some of the youtube videos I've watched essentially show the AI as this static entity that just seems to largely sit around and gets clobbered with ease.

What I'm hoping to hear from you guys is an honest assessment of the current state of the AI. Do they every surprise you with some sort of a twist or challenge? Are they able to put together competent fleets? Have you ever lost a planet due to an invasion by AI troops. I've read through other threads on the AI but I still don't have a real grasp as to what they are capable of and what I could expect to see in my games.

Also, I am primarily looking for answers related to challenges brought about by non-pirate factions.

Post #: 1

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 2:46:21 PM

Cauldyth

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

Let me preface this with saying that although I've been a huge DW fan for many years, I'm still pretty lousy at the game, and leave many things on automation.

But for what it's worth, the game still gives me a challenge even on Hard (there are two more difficulty levels above Hard). Recent patches seem to have made significant improvements as well. Here's a story that happened to me recently where the AI caught me by surprise. How much of this happened merely by accident and how much by design, I can't say:

The neighbouring Securans declared war on me. I'm a cautious player, so I decided to sit back at first and go defensive, to see where they would attack.
I detected several mid-sized fleets of theirs raiding my mining stations. They only had 2 colonies themselves, so I decided to see if I could hammer their homeworld while their fleets were away.
So, I took my primary fleet which also contained my admiral and all my captains, and decided to peek in their home system. Being a cautious player, I wasn't going to warp in on their homeworld itself, I was merely warping to the star to take a peek (and then jump to their homeworld if it looked vulnerable).
My fleet arrives at the star, so I pause and look over at their homeworld. Unfortunately, it's guarded by a very large fleet which could paste mine even without the help of the space port and defensive bases. I order my fleet out of the system and then unpause.
Well, it seems they had a single special capital ship at their homeworld with a fast-jump engine (meaning it can jump to hyperspace on very short notice, not that it travels particularly quickly while in hyperspace). That single ship responds to my fleet's presence very quickly, dropping out of hyperspace right in the middle of them before they can get to hyperspace themselves. And then it turns on its warp inhibitor...
I pause, frantically tell every one of my ships to KILL THAT DAMN THING and then unpause, but there's not enough time. The bulk of their fleet, which had slower firing warp engines, then warps in on my pinned fleet and proceeds to kill every last ship and character in it.

< Message edited by Cauldyth -- 7/25/2014 3:46:46 PM >

(in reply to greenrebellion)

Post #: 2

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 3:11:00 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

I'm not going to say the AI is great. I still hope Distant Worlds 2 will involve a larger team and more dedicated resources for the AI.

However, there have been a lot of recent changes to improve Fleet Coordination, Exploration and Research Orders. Some player exploits have been nerfed like Tax Rates.

There are various ways to get longevity out of the game. Bump up the difficulty to Extreme. Start the game well behind other Empires. Rather than cutting the legs off the horse ... see just how quickly you can dominate. Try the Extreme Game of the Month #1. The AI Improvement Mod is very playable now already, just with a few limitations.

What other Space 4X games do you enjoy? At the end of the day Distant Worlds is the best current Space 4X game IMO, so if you are a fan of this type of Space 4X game, I wouldn't let this hold you back.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/25/2014 4:11:32 PM >

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 3

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 3:20:00 PM

Efaferal

Posts: 45
Joined: 6/4/2014
Status: offline

LOL Cauldyth. You got clobbered by the RNG for sure there. Hyperdeny + fast charging Hyper is a great fleet hunter.

The short answer is the AI is still not up to dealing with a human who micro manages. I have the most fun personally by creating all my fleets - assigning them to the duties then flipping on the automation.
Then I create my invasion force and expand. As things progress I rebuild and reassign fleets as needed.

The only ships I personally design are troop carriers and resupply ( unless I 'find' a super tech )

Anything more involved with the fleets/ships just make the game easier.

The best way to ensure AI operating well is use Icemania's AI MOD and keep the number of pirates down.
-E

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 4

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 3:39:24 PM

greenrebellion

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/25/2014
Status: offline

Thanks for the story Cauldyth, must have been devastating to lose your fleet like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
What other Space 4X games do you enjoy? At the end of the day Distant Worlds is the best current Space 4X game IMO, so if you are a fan of this type of Space 4X game, I wouldn't let this hold you back.

Most of my 4x experience would be in Gal Civ 2. Actually, the thing that originally sold me on that game was the marketing behind excellent AI. But once you got beyond a couple of superficial aspects, the AI in that game was pretty much par for the course in this genre. Sometimes I wish that game developers could develop a whole new version of a game without adding new features and solely focus on polishing the core game and improving the AI. But alas, new features sell and many would complain about having to pay for a new version of a game that only improved AI or other background components.

I will look back at your AI mod thread. I usually avoid touching things in "alpha" but it seems like there aren't too many issues with it at this point.

I'd still love to hear about anyone who has actually had the AI invade a planet they owned before...seems like that is an event that just never happens.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 5

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 3:49:46 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

I also enjoyed Gal Civ 2. The AI was one of the better ones but I agree and have higher hopes for Gal Civ 3.

The first time I played the Ancient Galaxy Storyline I didn't just lose a few planets to the enemy, they destroyed one ...

(in reply to greenrebellion)

Post #: 6

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 4:21:56 PM

Cauldyth

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

Oh, I've had the AI invade my planets many times, absolutely. I've also had them glass my planets from orbit when they couldn't be bothered to invade.

I also see the AI invading each other's planets regularly. In the same game as I mentioned above, the Teekans had grown to massive size (42 colonies) but eventually a war broke out between them and the Gizureans (18 colonies). Like clockwork, I watched the Gizureans taking the Teekan colonies one by one. When the war ended, 13 of the Teekan colonies had been taken by the bugs. The damn bugs then had 31 colonies plus a huge Teekan population under their boot.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 7

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 4:40:13 PM

Gregorovitch55

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline

I got DW:U on it's steam release and am on my 5th game. I have found it hard to motivate myself to fire up EU4 or Civ5 for the last couple of months because of it. T address you questions about the AI from a relatively new player's perspective:

1. The game is easy on normal difficulty for anyone with a strategy gaming background after one game's familiarization. The exception to this is the main Age of Shadows story line which will test your metal at the very least until you figure out how to deal with it.

2. There are umpteen different ways to increase the difficulty. I'm up to very hard/unstable now so I've got one level to go, but I have so far left the pirates on normal for all parameters and i haven't interfered with research rates, colonizing distances etc. It gets significantly harder particularly as there are no easy fixes to make money to pay for more ships. The AI will make a good job of sizing you up as weak and make short work of dismembering your empire if given half a chance. You can easily over expand, equally you can easily expand too slowly.

3. Although I would say you can't really lose on normal difficulty, at harder settings it matters a great deal where you happen to spawn in the galaxy, who your neighbours are and how far away they are. Depending on how the game spawns you and and type of galaxy you choose you it can be anything from a cakewalk to very difficult at the same difficulty settings. In my last game I got spawned in a very tight spot and I was not able to make it: the pirates and the insect races ground down my fleets and I didn't have the resources to make any more. This game on the same difficulty I'm having a much easier time of it and looking forward to throwing my weight around. This makes much more difference in DW than it does in GalCiv2 for example and in turn makes for a much more interesting game - situation vary widely game to game.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 8

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 5:24:41 PM

DeadlyShoe

Posts: 217
Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline

The AI consists of a number of modules for different tasks; the player can turn these modules on and off in their own empire as they see fit. The individual modules are pretty good with some caveats. AI cannot holistically plan like a player of course - following predefined rules will never be as good as what a human can do.

There's a few things players can do that the AI doesn't 'know' - like tax/growth minmaxing and exploiting tech trading. These can give the player a huge leg up strategically and whether or not that is something you want is up to the individual. :)

Object and information value for diplomacy is predefined rather than relative so a player can get an empire to give them all their money for basically no benefit.

It matters a lot which race you play as. Some races are just better and some races are just worse.

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)

Post #: 9

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 5:52:41 PM

Cauldyth

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

Fortunately, I've never liked tech trading in these types of games, so I always have it off (though I agree it should still be re-balanced for those people who do like it as a mechanic).

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)

Post #: 10

RE: AI Questions - 7/25/2014 9:42:06 PM

Tcby

Posts: 342
Joined: 12/16/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

The AI tries to capture planets all the time. They aren't always good at it, but your impression that cannot invade is, thankfully, a bit off the mark :)

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 11

RE: AI Questions - 7/26/2014 3:45:09 AM

Kilravock

Posts: 65
Joined: 6/10/2014
Status: offline

Yeah the AI can and will invade and capture planets with or without a war declaration.

People do complain about a weak AI but remember 1. most games have a weak AI against players that know how a game works, it's not just Distant Worlds. 2. The strength of the AI depends heavily on the RNG and the pre-game setup. Start a non-prewarp game, give the AI excellent home worlds, give them a tech lead and let them start a little larger than you. The AI will give you a good fight as you play catch up. You can even handicap yourself in the setup. It is possible to lose this game if you go to far with it.

The AI has improve quite a bit since Legends. It can surprise you and put up a good fight if you are weaker or equal in tech to them. Strong pirates in a prewarp game is a nightmare too. The AI is not brain dead.and it will let you know if you get complacent in defending yourself.

< Message edited by Kilravock -- 7/26/2014 4:47:26 AM >

(in reply to Tcby)

Post #: 12