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LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 12:43:28 AM

guytipton41

Posts: 351
Joined: 2/26/2011
From: Houston, TX
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Hi Folks,

We're in Aug '44 of a scenario 1 GC running the most current Beta.

I was bombing the heck out of Manus with an invasion fleet unloading. I was wondering if the KB would come barreling in and try to sink some of my precious Amphibs. Would have been an interesting battle. Since there were only 28 CVE (80% VF) covering the invasion I tried something new. As an experiment I put the 200 P-47s at Kavieng on 100% LRCap over one of the CVTF at Manus (range 6). The way I understand it that means 1/3 over the target, 1/3 enroute and 1/3 refueling. The P-47s were using drop tanks.

Roughly 400~500 bombers struck from PM in 19 strikes. There were no interceptions or any other Japanese air activity. Up to 125 P-47 escorted each strike and as few as 50.

Looks like:
3 times 2 squadrons showed up.
5 times 3 squadrons showed up.
7 times 4 squadrons showed up.
4 times 5 squadrons showed up.

The average was 3.63 squadrons over the target or 45%. The small downside is that the P-47 units now require several days of standdown to get the fatigue levels under control. All these fighter units were in single digit fatigue before.

Is this what is intended? Should I be able to get awesome escort by flying LRCAP? Or is this special circumstances (not the Iain M. Banks sort)?

Cheers,
Guy

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 1:35:17 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
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LRCAP can complement but won't replace escort.
You will get much fewer planes than with escorting, sometimes they won't even catch the enemy CAP and also their fatigue will get high really quickly

That said, if I have spare fighter close to the target, I always put some on LRCAP... that plus normal escort

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/12/2014 2:37:37 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 2:26:39 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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I have a lot of turns under my belt and I only use LRCAP and avoid escort as much as possible. It is much better. It is usually there for multiple rounds of combat and does not get slaughtered as close range escorts will. It is a no brainer in my book. You are right in that the penalty is high fatigue but that is much better than getting your escort slaughtered. I also use long range CAP in combination with sweeps. It is very effective-even better if your sweeps go in in multiple units as you will have the LRCAP around for multiple combats.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/12/2014 3:27:32 AM >

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 2:44:46 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
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Do you send then like 100% LRCAP for a specific hex/ base and then rest?

Otherwise "escorting plane" numbers will be very small

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/12/2014 3:54:36 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 5:18:54 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
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Some players complain about using this but in my opinion it is a perfect work around for the way the game treats escorts as useless bullet sponges. It works for both sides so neither side can gain a decisive advantage from it either.

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/12/2014 5:53:43 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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Hey Miller, long time no see. I think everybody pretty much now accepts this as the norm and perfectly OK.

And Jorge, I pretty much set it on 100% and then rest the unit the next turn. However, this is a matter of preference and not required.

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/13/2014 2:43:26 PM

millersan

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/7/2012
From: Houston TX
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As the Japanese player in the subject encounter I have to say that I (we) had no idea that LR Cap would act as an escort to every incoming strike. Rules certainly are silent on this (as they are on many things). I would have bet money that this was a bug that needed addressing.
As said, Manus was hit by 19 separate strikes and the combat report shows that ALL of them came over the target with an average of 45% of the fighters assigned to LR Cap. So....200 P-47s turned into over 1500 P-47s if you add up the fighter component of all the strikes. This is a real game changer and we'll conduct a few more tests to see if it can be counted on. If it can then the big question is: Why would you ever fly escort. Escort fighters will only fly once and with 19 strikes on the same target a good many bombers will come in with no fighters.
Can't believe that after playing every day for 3 years I had no clue LR Cap would show up with strike bombers.
Perhaps defending CAP has a better chance of getting to the bombers if the fighters are flying LR Cap instead of escort???

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/13/2014 3:46:13 PM

SqzMyLemon

Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Some players complain about using this but in my opinion it is a perfect work around for the way the game treats escorts as useless bullet sponges. It works for both sides so neither side can gain a decisive advantage from it either.

I was one of these. I've since embraced using LRCAP in an escort role. As crsutton and Miller say, "it's a no brainer" to offset the prohibitive penalties to escorts.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 8/13/2014 4:46:35 PM >

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/13/2014 6:39:12 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Some players complain about using this but in my opinion it is a perfect work around for the way the game treats escorts as useless bullet sponges. It works for both sides so neither side can gain a decisive advantage from it either.

I was one of these. I've since embraced using LRCAP in an escort role. As crsutton and Miller say, "it's a no brainer" to offset the prohibitive penalties to escorts.

And to point out, this tactic is available to either side. So it is not a balance thing. There are counters to it just as there are counters to most all tactics.

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/13/2014 11:18:29 PM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: millersan

As the Japanese player in the subject encounter I have to say that I (we) had no idea that LR Cap would act as an escort to every incoming strike. Rules certainly are silent on this (as they are on many things). I would have bet money that this was a bug that needed addressing.
As said, Manus was hit by 19 separate strikes and the combat report shows that ALL of them came over the target with an average of 45% of the fighters assigned to LR Cap. So....200 P-47s turned into over 1500 P-47s if you add up the fighter component of all the strikes. This is a real game changer and we'll conduct a few more tests to see if it can be counted on. If it can then the big question is: Why would you ever fly escort. Escort fighters will only fly once and with 19 strikes on the same target a good many bombers will come in with no fighters.
Can't believe that after playing every day for 3 years I had no clue LR Cap would show up with strike bombers.
Perhaps defending CAP has a better chance of getting to the bombers if the fighters are flying LR Cap instead of escort???

Since there was no opposition air activity, you didn't see 200 fighters turn into thousands, but the same fighters loitering around as multiple strikes arrive over the target, as well as multiple sorties by the same A/C and pilots. That is why the have such high fatigue afterwards as compared to an escort mission.

(in reply to millersan)

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/14/2014 8:06:34 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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Regarding LR CAP, I was one who did think it was a bit overpowered from a game-play situation. It isn't just constant presence, but constant return to height with each attack and the resulting dive that makes it such a tough tactic to combat from a defensive position.

That said, there are downsides, like the LR CAP simply being led astray by another attack close to home base, or flying further than set to combat sweeps at a more distant base. Of course it also puts fewer planes into play from those groups at any one time. So it is just another in the myriad of available possibilities that can lead to create counter-play in the game, and it can make up for way escorts simply get mauled. In fact this tactic might slow the pace to a slightly more realistic level if the LR CAP is fatigued more quickly, thus strikes must take a few days between missions.

My settings vary with LR CAP, but I rarely use 100%. I can use 70-80% and keep it going for several days, even with combat, plus if the battle is large there will be more planes left in later rounds of combat if some have been on rest rather than all flying.

It can also be used effectively as a defensive tactic. Many players LR CAP their own bases from those out of range of the attacker or use it create a mutually supportive CAP over many bases close together.

LR CAP is useful, but can be fickle and unpredictable, so it will remain a risk even though the benefits when it works are enormous.

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RE: LRCAP as escort - 8/14/2014 12:57:52 PM

Thayne

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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In reading the history of the 8th Air Force, this may be consistent with doctrine.

Prior to Feb. 1944, fighters flew escort missions. Their job was to get the bombers home

In Feb. 1944, they were unchained and told to aggressively engage the fighters. These were not "sweep" missions because they were still tied to bomber operations. The bombers were sent to where the Germans would seriously want to defend, to draw the fighters up to where the Allied fighters can reach them. The job now was to destroy fighters - the bombers were bait.

< Message edited by Thayne -- 8/14/2014 4:32:23 PM >

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Post #: 12