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RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/10/2014 4:21:22 PM   
obvert


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July 11 - 12, 1942



INDIA: Got a little too close to Diego in a scouting mission with three RN DDs. An entire sentai of Vals attacked and got three bombs onto Decoy, which sank, and another two onto Electra, which should make it. At least I know he's got some firepower out here now. Don't like losing a ship, but that is good to know.

Pacific: Another level one field at Onotoa just below Tabiteuea just built up.

CHINA: Interesting events in China. The troops near Chikhiang endure a DA the Japanese only get a 1:4, but of course the losses are tough to take for the Chinese. I'll be swapping out one corps for a bigger one, and hopefully it can dig in before the next serious action.

More importantly, the troops up near the mountains hold the tanks to a 1:8!! The Allies take minimal losses, including no loss to guns, while the Chinese take 3 destroyed and 52 disabled vehicles, hopefully tanks and not motorized support. This should give good time for digging in and gives a sense that this big corps was definitely worth the cost of building up. Most losses were from the smaller corps and it will be even more slid once it gets to 2 forts in a few days.

I thought long and hard about a return DA here, but with no ability to protect the troops from air strikes and since the tanks have most likely dug in to at least forts 1, this seems dicey. The disruption caused by a 1:8 attack would likely be significant though, and the AV adjustment for the Chinese defense rose from actual while the tanks had a lower than actual adjusted. It might have worked, but I was too wary of turning a good thing into a terrible one up here.

Now. If I can sneak a corps behind these forward units into the 20k SL hex against the two small tank regiments there, maybe, just maybe there would be a chance to cut off the forward division.

SIGINT: Over the past few months these units have been located at Perth. Id like to trap them there in a few months!

16th Army is located at Perth(49,147).
Imperial Guards Division is located at Perth(49,147).
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion is located at Perth(49,147).
4th Division is located at Perth(49,147).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 11, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Diego Garcia at 6,62

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 33

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Decoy, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Fortune
DD Electra, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 78,51 (near Chihkiang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 32519 troops, 386 guns, 578 vehicles, Assault Value = 989

Defending force 36956 troops, 163 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1099

Japanese adjusted assault: 542

Allied adjusted defense: 2674

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1863 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 27 disabled

Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1130 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 108 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Assaulting units:
13th Tank Regiment
15th Division
34th Division
23rd Tank Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
13th Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Mortar Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
73rd Chinese Corps
63rd Chinese Corps
70th Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
7th Artillery Regiment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 72,49 (near Kweiyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 8232 troops, 122 guns, 598 vehicles, Assault Value = 426

Defending force 46542 troops, 309 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1596

Japanese adjusted assault: 306

Allied adjusted defense: 2459

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
195 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 55 (3 destroyed, 52 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
354 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 33 disabled

Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
Guards Tank Division

Defending units:
7th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
66th Chinese Corps
1st Group Army
1st Artillery Regiment
18th Artillery Regiment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








Just slowly working up each base here. A massive flood of units and supply will reach the area in 5-7 days. Lots of base forces, engineers and some small troops. Fingers crossed it stays quiet, but most are on quick ships at least.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/10/2014 5:22:31 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 841
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/10/2014 4:24:39 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Seems to me that engineers are needed to get forts built at a reasonable rate for units in the field. Units that have
their own engineers do just fine, but for HQs and artillery/anti-tank units fort building is very slow. I put some independent
construction regiments in the hex and fort building for the units without engineers accelerated.
It's a hard choice between having construction units building forts and doing repairs at bases or helping in the field.


Good thinking. These are all sitting around doing nothing as I don't want to expend supplies on base forts. So maybe I'll move a few into contested hexes. I wouldn't actually mind getting them killed off as they eat more supplies than they're worth.

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/10/2014 7:12:13 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 842
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/10/2014 4:24:58 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

Yeah, supply seems to flow just fine about everywhere on the map. If you and I could have over 1 million men supplied over dirt roads in Burma during the monsoon anything can be supplied everywhere. So far in this game I have never had problems with supply flowing anywhere except Northern OZ. I have stopped hoping/counting on supply ever being a limiting factor (as long as its available).


Different for me. Drop into my AAR if you want to talk details.


Will do.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 843
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/10/2014 10:30:28 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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July 13 - 14, 1942



SUBS: No sign of the KB moving on the approaches to Truk, Rabaul or Kweijalen.

INDIA: Our forces at Hyderabad try a DA. It tells me what i need to low, but at some cost. These troops must be well dug in and experienced, while mine had 1 fort for the divisions but none yet for the arty. I'll wait for anything else until the arty get protected a bit more. He tries a bombing run with about 100 Sallys but loses around 8-10 on the day to flak from 20k feet!

Our bombing runs go a little better. An SNLF is wrecked at Viz and a few hits are put on the fields at Bellary. I'll keep probing and trying to hit where the CAP isn't, but if any of his CAP moves to protect the smaller bases I'll load up and take on the big ones. Some new 4E groups arrive here to bring totals up to around 110 planes, soon to increase when the groups expand as well. Training pilots like mad for that!

Pacific: All continuing well. Wasp makes Sydney and will repair and rest for a few turns, taking fighters into the now expanded group, and then she will move to defend the IO.

CHINA: Lots of bombing and ground bombardments, but no fresh attacks.

SIGINT: Good SIGINT on Diego here. This combined with earlier notes provides a good picture of what is here.

41st Infantry Regiment is located at Diego Garcia(11,62).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 13, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Hyderabad (39,32)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 45500 troops, 856 guns, 818 vehicles, Assault Value = 1673

Defending force 45453 troops, 623 guns, 664 vehicles, Assault Value = 970

Japanese ground losses:
183 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
142 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 10 disabled

Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 9 (2 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (5 destroyed, 5 disabled)


Assaulting units:
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
7th Armoured Brigade
7th Australian Division
6th Australian Division
762nd Tank Battalion
44th Cavalry Regiment
70th British Division
Waziristan Division
6th Medium Regiment
77th Coast AA Regiment
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
21st Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
III Indian Corps
85th British AT Gun Regiment
65th Coast AA Regiment
2/1st Med Regiment
260th Coast AA Regiment
2/9th Field Regiment
2/11th Field Regiment
134th Field Artillery Battalion
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment

Defending units:
5th Division
24th Ind Engineer Regiment
21st Division
14th Tank Regiment
8th JAAF Base Force
30th Fld AA Gun Co
26th Fld AA Gun Co
50th Field AA Battalion
22nd Air Defense AA Regiment
21st Air Defense AA Regiment
11th Air Fleet
Southern Army
11th Ind.AA Gun Co
25th Army
3rd Mortar Battalion
32nd Ind.AA Gun Co
31st Fld AA Gun Co
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
45th Field AA Battalion
26th JAAF AF Bn
40th Field AA Battalion
4th Air Defense AA Regiment
13th Ind.AA Gun Co
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
45th Ind.AA Gun Co
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
20th AA Regiment
106th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 14, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on 6th Australian Division, at 39,32 (Hyderabad)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 25,200 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
A6M3 Zero x 7
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 40
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 11
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 6 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20200 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
20 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20200 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20200 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Also attacking 762nd Tank Battalion ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 762nd Tank Battalion, at 39,32 (Hyderabad)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 115 NM, estimated altitude 22,200 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
A6M3 Zero x 11
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 34
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 15
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 4 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed by flak


Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20200 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20200 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sasebo 5th SNLF, at 42,37 (Vizagapatnam)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 32

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
540 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 33 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 31 disabled

Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








Lost the City of Agra to an 'internal explosion' recently! Glad she was only carrying supply and not a 4E group!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/10/2014 11:30:44 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 844
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 1:06:26 AM   
crsutton


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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?

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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 845
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 6:59:38 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


Any bombardment should use his supplies, and of course taking any replacements needed after does as well. Hopefully I can get better results once dug in. If not I'll be sitting here a while not ding much until the next phase gets into movement.



_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 846
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 10:05:35 AM   
MrKane


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Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 847
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 10:31:55 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.


+1

This is what I've always understood as well.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to MrKane)
Post #: 848
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 3:44:16 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.


Just another reason why reserve mode is so useful...

(in reply to MrKane)
Post #: 849
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 4:10:56 PM   
MrKane


Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.


Just another reason why reserve mode is so useful...


Especially when you are the one who is shooting at opponent position. Only yours ARTY unit are using supplies in combat rate mode in this case, it save me a lot of supplies in my games.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 850
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 7:16:21 PM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.


Just another reason why reserve mode is so useful...


That's a dangerous path! I've had some good moments and some very bad ones in reserve. If he attacks, well, then you're defending in move mode, which is obviously not ideal. Also, all units cannot be in reserve mode, so in China that means the Chinese basically have to let one unit get pounded to rest the others.


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 851
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 7:31:01 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I know I should know this but does arty bombardment alone burn enemy supply?


My understanding of manual says that bombarded units are eating supplies with combat rate not normal rate.


Just another reason why reserve mode is so useful...


That's a dangerous path! I've had some good moments and some very bad ones in reserve. If he attacks, well, then you're defending in move mode, which is obviously not ideal. Also, all units cannot be in reserve mode, so in China that means the Chinese basically have to let one unit get pounded to rest the others.



I've done all units in reserve mode. I did mess up and put them all back into reserve mode, when I should have left the ones that got "caught" in Combat...

I'm not convinced that they actually fight in move mode - if they did, shouldn't there be an op mode penalty listed in the CR? And that's not listed, so....is it actually happening? Maybe it's an artifact of the Chinese infantry just really sucking rather than an op mode penalty that doesn't appear in the combat report.

Keep in mind that units won't build forts if they aren't in Combat mode.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 852
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 8:36:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've done all units in reserve mode. I did mess up and put them all back into reserve mode, when I should have left the ones that got "caught" in Combat...

I'm not convinced that they actually fight in move mode - if they did, shouldn't there be an op mode penalty listed in the CR? And that's not listed, so....is it actually happening? Maybe it's an artifact of the Chinese infantry just really sucking rather than an op mode penalty that doesn't appear in the combat report.

Keep in mind that units won't build forts if they aren't in Combat mode.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. When enemy units are in the hex as well, one unit has to be in combat mode when the others are all in reserve. You can set them all in reserve, but after the turn one always has changed into combat mode, for me at least. This has happened numerous times in the current game.

It is stated in the manual that any unit in reserve may move to fill a gap in the defense if the units in a hex are attacked, but it will switch into move mode and fight in that mode, not in an optimal condition. If this has changed I'd love to know, but it sure seems from my experience in game that it hasn't.

The Corps in the mountains fighting the tank division that was just pushed out was actually moving back in reserve mode while the arty unit was in combat mode, but GJ had supply enough for one more attack, which I didn't think he would have, and instead of the 1:1 adjustments we'd been having between the same units, instead it was 1:10. Ouch.


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 853
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 8:59:18 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I've done all units in reserve mode. I did mess up and put them all back into reserve mode, when I should have left the ones that got "caught" in Combat...

I'm not convinced that they actually fight in move mode - if they did, shouldn't there be an op mode penalty listed in the CR? And that's not listed, so....is it actually happening? Maybe it's an artifact of the Chinese infantry just really sucking rather than an op mode penalty that doesn't appear in the combat report.

Keep in mind that units won't build forts if they aren't in Combat mode.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. When enemy units are in the hex as well, one unit has to be in combat mode when the others are all in reserve. You can set them all in reserve, but after the turn one always has changed into combat mode, for me at least. This has happened numerous times in the current game.

It is stated in the manual that any unit in reserve may move to fill a gap in the defense if the units in a hex are attacked, but it will switch into move mode and fight in that mode, not in an optimal condition. If this has changed I'd love to know, but it sure seems from my experience in game that it hasn't.

The Corps in the mountains fighting the tank division that was just pushed out was actually moving back in reserve mode while the arty unit was in combat mode, but GJ had supply enough for one more attack, which I didn't think he would have, and instead of the 1:1 adjustments we'd been having between the same units, instead it was 1:10. Ouch.



I've had entire stacks sit in Reserve mode with enemies in the same hex... the danger, of course, is that I would then have no control over which unit(s) get pulled into Combat. I could have been more selective, but I figured against such a large stack of IJA tanks it didn't really matter - those farther along on the movement progress to the Great Hex of Escape would make it out, while those straggling behind would be caught and forced into a disorganized retreat. That's more a consequence of my choosing to stream them out rather than a mass exodus, but still.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 854
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 10:29:49 PM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Right. It's impossible to choose which unit out of those that are in reserve mode will be used for combat if the enemy bombards. But it's also impossible to assure full fighting capability from the units in the hex since they will be fighting in move mode if the attack is 'winning' and those reserve troops are called in to stem the tide and attempt to hold the hex.

While it is a supply drain it's preferable to have units in combat mode in a contested hex, especially when it's clear the enemy will DA/SA at some point. Units in reserve mode also take more damage from air strikes (even with forts built).

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/11/2014 11:30:31 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 855
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/11/2014 11:58:27 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Right. It's impossible to choose which unit out of those that are in reserve mode will be used for combat if the enemy bombards. But it's also impossible to assure full fighting capability from the units in the hex since they will be fighting in move mode if the attack is 'winning' and those reserve troops are called in to stem the tide and attempt to hold the hex.

While it is a supply drain it's preferable to have units in combat mode in a contested hex, especially when it's clear the enemy will DA/SA at some point. Units in reserve mode also take more damage from air strikes (even with forts built).


I agree in broad strokes that you want to sit in combat, with few exceptions - such as when you know you have sufficient units sitting in combat to maintain 1:2 odds or better in your favor, although I made the mistake of forgetting that some of my best Corps at Chungking were in Reserve for several of the IJA attacks against high fort levels. If I hadn't forgotten that, I might have really ripped up the IJA and held out for much longer. The other exception would be what happened in my example below, where I'm just wanting them to get out of the hex ASAP and anything getting out is better than nothing, so will risk the attacks the are pulsed with IJA supply shipments.

I'm still not convinced there is an op mode penalty for Reserve mode. Yes, the manual or whatever says it's there, but it's not in the combat report as op mode(-) so I'm not sure it's actually happening. Example, everything in reserve here (in hopes that some will move far enough to make it out of the hex before the stack crumpled):

quote:

Ground combat at 66,44 (near Paoshan)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 46947 troops, 1089 guns, 2968 vehicles, Assault Value = 1822

Defending force 52923 troops, 227 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1287

Japanese adjusted assault: 974

Allied adjusted defense: 493

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
No modifier here...
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)

Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
336 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
3022 casualties reported
Squads: 24 destroyed, 264 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 92 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Assaulting units:
12th Tank Regiment
1st Tank Division
23rd Tank Regiment
17th Tank Regiment
40th Division
2nd Tank Regiment
13th Tank Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
2nd Tank Division
51st Recon Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
1st Army
11th Army
10th Mortar Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
21st Mortar Battalion
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Army
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
23rd Army
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
13th Army
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Mongol Garrison Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
67th Chinese Corps
65th Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
2nd Prov Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
6th Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
11th Group Army
3rd Chinese Base Force
12th Group Army
32nd Group Army
19th Group Army
10th Group Army
21st Group Army
10th Chinese Base Force
20th Group Army
11th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
29th Group Army
7th Construction Regiment


Every single Allied (Chinese) unit was in Reserve mode before the fight. Given the quality of troops and that all units had terrible supply levels (many with 0 and none incoming), it's impossible to tell if the high levels of casualties are from an "invisible" op mode penalty from Reserve mode or just normal happenings.

I'm also not convinced that being bombarded will pull a single unit in a full stack of Reserved units out of reserve and into Combat mode. I think an actual attack may have to occur, but I'd need to test. Basically, I don't trust that any of the stated-in-the-manual/documentation drawbacks to Reserve mode are actually working correctly.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 8/12/2014 12:58:56 AM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 856
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 12:06:32 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Right. It's impossible to choose which unit out of those that are in reserve mode will be used for combat if the enemy bombards. But it's also impossible to assure full fighting capability from the units in the hex since they will be fighting in move mode if the attack is 'winning' and those reserve troops are called in to stem the tide and attempt to hold the hex.

While it is a supply drain it's preferable to have units in combat mode in a contested hex, especially when it's clear the enemy will DA/SA at some point. Units in reserve mode also take more damage from air strikes (even with forts built).


I agree in broad strokes that you want to sit in combat, with few exceptions - such as when you know you have sufficient units sitting in combat to maintain 1:2 odds or better in your favor, although I made the mistake of forgetting that some of my best Corps at Chungking were in Reserve for several of the IJA attacks against high fort levels. If I hadn't forgotten that, I might have really ripped up the IJA and held out for much longer. The other exception would be what happened in my example below, where I'm just wanting them to get out of the hex ASAP and anything getting out is better than nothing, so will risk the attacks the are pulsed with IJA supply shipments.

I'm still not convinced there is an op mode penalty for Reserve mode. Yes, the manual or whatever says it's there, but it's not in the combat report as op mode(-) so I'm not sure it's actually happening. Example, everything in reserve here (in hopes that some will move far enough to make it out of the hex before the stack crumpled):

quote:

Ground combat at 66,44 (near Paoshan)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 46947 troops, 1089 guns, 2968 vehicles, Assault Value = 1822

Defending force 52923 troops, 227 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1287

Japanese adjusted assault: 974

Allied adjusted defense: 493

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
No modifier here...
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)

Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
336 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
3022 casualties reported
Squads: 24 destroyed, 264 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 92 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Assaulting units:
12th Tank Regiment
1st Tank Division
23rd Tank Regiment
17th Tank Regiment
40th Division
2nd Tank Regiment
13th Tank Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
2nd Tank Division
51st Recon Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
1st Army
11th Army
10th Mortar Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
21st Mortar Battalion
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Army
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
23rd Army
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
13th Army
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Mongol Garrison Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
67th Chinese Corps
65th Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
2nd Prov Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
6th Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
11th Group Army
3rd Chinese Base Force
12th Group Army
32nd Group Army
19th Group Army
10th Group Army
21st Group Army
10th Chinese Base Force
20th Group Army
11th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
29th Group Army
7th Construction Regiment


Every single Allied (Chinese) unit was in Reserve mode before the fight. Given the quality of troops and that all units had terrible supply levels (many with 0 and none incoming), it's impossible to tell if the high levels of casualties are from an "invisible" op mode penalty from Reserve mode or just normal happenings.

I'm also not convinced that being bombarded will pull a single unit in a full stack of Reserved units out of reserve and into Combat mode. I think an actual attack may have to occur, but I'd need to test. Basically, I don't trust that any of the stated-in-the-manual/documentation drawbacks to Reserve mode are actually working correctly.


If what you're telling me is the case, then there might be a bug in reserve mode. There's no way that all those tanks inflicted "only" 3000 odd casualties when most of the units were in reserve mode.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 857
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 1:43:40 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
All in Reserve mode, not most. And there was terrain there...

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 858
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 2:32:31 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Interesting, I just have never used front line troops in reserve mode. Can't see much of a benefit. Except for pursuit, that is.


< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/12/2014 3:32:57 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 859
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 2:36:55 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Interesting, I just have never used front line troops in reserve mode. Can't see much of a benefit. Except for pursuit, that is.



As far as I can tell, they move at the Move mode rate regardless of any aerial bombing, combat, etc. Also protected from bombardment and seem to take replacements/repair disablements faster. It's like Move mode + Rest mode with no downside, other than an alleged combat penalty if they get pulled in to prevent 2:1 odds.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 860
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 8:51:51 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm also not convinced that being bombarded will pull a single unit in a full stack of Reserved units out of reserve and into Combat mode. I think an actual attack may have to occur, but I'd need to test. Basically, I don't trust that any of the stated-in-the-manual/documentation drawbacks to Reserve mode are actually working correctly.


This part has been tested extensively in this game. I've had 15+ incidences of this happen. I've tried virtually all possibilities to limit supply loss from bombardments and to keep troops out of the line of fire. When all of the units in a hex are in reserve and the enemy bombards, every single time one unit has been transferred into combat mode.


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 861
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 8:54:09 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


If what you're telling me is the case, then there might be a bug in reserve mode. There's no way that all those tanks inflicted "only" 3000 odd casualties when most of the units were in reserve mode.


Looks lie a mountain hex, so it doesn't look abnormal for a 1:1 DA. if they'd gotten a 2:1, then the wheels would have fallen off.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 862
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 1:48:53 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

All in Reserve mode, not most. And there was terrain there...


Even so, it's a monster stack of tanks, against low supply Chinese with only 200 odd guns. Terrain or not, I'd have expected better...

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 863
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 2:05:01 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

All in Reserve mode, not most. And there was terrain there...


Even so, it's a monster stack of tanks, against low supply Chinese with only 200 odd guns. Terrain or not, I'd have expected better...


Looks normal to me - as we all know, IJA tanks are really just "tanks" . I took a nice long look at AFV device stats last night. Even the lowly Allied Stuart Light Tank has better stats than the IJA Type 97 Medium Tank. Keep in mind that the odds were 1:1, not 2:1 - which you did eventually reach. This was an attack or two before the last one that made the Chinese go full Monty Python. 300 IJA vs. 3000 Chinese looks right, maybe even a little stiff for the Chinese (perhaps from an invisible reserve mode penalty).


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm also not convinced that being bombarded will pull a single unit in a full stack of Reserved units out of reserve and into Combat mode. I think an actual attack may have to occur, but I'd need to test. Basically, I don't trust that any of the stated-in-the-manual/documentation drawbacks to Reserve mode are actually working correctly.


This part has been tested extensively in this game. I've had 15+ incidences of this happen. I've tried virtually all possibilities to limit supply loss from bombardments and to keep troops out of the line of fire. When all of the units in a hex are in reserve and the enemy bombards, every single time one unit has been transferred into combat mode.



That's good to know.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 864
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 2:11:33 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

All in Reserve mode, not most. And there was terrain there...


Even so, it's a monster stack of tanks, against low supply Chinese with only 200 odd guns. Terrain or not, I'd have expected better...


Looks normal to me - as we all know, IJA tanks are really just "tanks" . I took a nice long look at AFV device stats last night. Even the lowly Allied Stuart Light Tank has better stats than the IJA Type 97 Medium Tank. Keep in mind that the odds were 1:1, not 2:1 - which you did eventually reach. This was an attack or two before the last one that made the Chinese go full Monty Python. 300 IJA vs. 3000 Chinese looks right, maybe even a little stiff for the Chinese (perhaps from an invisible reserve mode penalty).




Perhaps I expected a bit much of my five hundred odd IJA "tanks" against Chinese troops out of supply and with little AT capability...

I do find the absence of a (- ops mode) quite a suprise though. I think if your troops had been in "Move" mode, the result would be quite different...

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 865
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/12/2014 6:08:18 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

All in Reserve mode, not most. And there was terrain there...


Even so, it's a monster stack of tanks, against low supply Chinese with only 200 odd guns. Terrain or not, I'd have expected better...


Looks normal to me - as we all know, IJA tanks are really just "tanks" . I took a nice long look at AFV device stats last night. Even the lowly Allied Stuart Light Tank has better stats than the IJA Type 97 Medium Tank. Keep in mind that the odds were 1:1, not 2:1 - which you did eventually reach. This was an attack or two before the last one that made the Chinese go full Monty Python. 300 IJA vs. 3000 Chinese looks right, maybe even a little stiff for the Chinese (perhaps from an invisible reserve mode penalty).


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm also not convinced that being bombarded will pull a single unit in a full stack of Reserved units out of reserve and into Combat mode. I think an actual attack may have to occur, but I'd need to test. Basically, I don't trust that any of the stated-in-the-manual/documentation drawbacks to Reserve mode are actually working correctly.


This part has been tested extensively in this game. I've had 15+ incidences of this happen. I've tried virtually all possibilities to limit supply loss from bombardments and to keep troops out of the line of fire. When all of the units in a hex are in reserve and the enemy bombards, every single time one unit has been transferred into combat mode.



That's good to know.


Japanese tank rule over infantry until the Allies 1943 squad upgrades, then they are quite impotent. AT guns help but are not as effective as they should be. It is when the squads upgrade (probably to reflect the introduction of bazookas and piats) that the Japanese tanks are nerfed. Virtually any Allied tank is better than Japanese tanks but the Indian army really does not get sufficient tank units until the end of 1942. The Australian tank regiments are quite strong by the end of July 42.


_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 866
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/15/2014 1:53:56 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Sorry of the lack of updates for a few days. Our turn count has slowed due both to Nick going on holiday and to me again starting work! I have a few days to update, including a KB ambush of my forces around Cent Pac. Not as bad as it could have been, but not ideal. Still, more troops are delivered and three bases have airfields built now. I'll post more as soon as I catch a break!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 867
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/15/2014 8:16:53 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
and to me again starting work!


Welcome back to reality! How many weeks of vacation this time?

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 868
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/16/2014 7:44:38 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
and to me again starting work!


Welcome back to reality! How many weeks of vacation this time?


Well, summer break. Two months!

It always is a shock to go back in, but a good one, and I'm looking forward to the new year kicking off.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 869
RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 8/16/2014 11:08:59 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Only two months? Poor you!

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 870
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