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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 1:38:06 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Agree ... although the Carriers were easy they are already done ... it's all the rest that await!

Blackstork, my bad, the race files will need to change in many cases to ensure that Tractor Beams are researched by the AI.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/27/2014 2:39:23 PM >

(in reply to Hikikomori)
Post #: 541
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 1:46:54 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		Well if it needed for such anticipated and sacred task as tractors its cool, only thing that I will need is understanding of what been changed and what not . (if its only research queues for certain races I would be happy to know that and just see update zip. That will ensure smooth integration, and we'll keep in touch and I am sure all will be OK.


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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 3:35:11 PM   
FrancoisH

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/24/2014
Status: offline 		My bad, I didn't thought reporting this little bug was putting you in so much trouble ;)

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Post #: 543
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 3:42:15 PM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Your good dude, we want these ideas to improve the Mods! No better time than now to include the cool stuff from the latest patch.

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Post #: 544
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 3:49:14 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		Its cool Francois. By testing and finding those issues you helped a lot to two mods and megamod idea at once, and a lot. Its actually appreciated. :) And as Icemanias said - this is opportunity to make upgrade for tractors.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 4:26:48 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		At the moment Resupply Ships are not used by the AI's in this Mod (well until they get beyond the Research Orders built anyway). That reflects my personal preferences.

Human players will be able to use the designs if they want now that I've fixed the docking bays, coming in 1.02.

The question I have for you all is whether I should change the AI's here to use Resupply Ships. Military Ships in the Mod have a lot more fuel cells than Vanilla, a lot more range, and they need to refuel far less frequently. The Research needed would slow down something else e.g. Construction Size research. Does this really help the AI?

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Post #: 546
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 4:31:17 PM   
FrancoisH

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/24/2014
Status: offline 		That's true the range is high, but depending on the research you chose, could help to get those at some point, but that's only my way of playing. But I do not use auto research now, I'm trying things out. I'll again use it with your mod so I can give you a better answer.

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Post #: 547
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 4:35:46 PM   
Blackstork


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Status: offline 		I think it should be done for certain design preference races. Races with hyper navigation theme like Dhayut (which been taken to more distinct levels in beyond) and speed races could fit more fuel bays etc. Power races could use resupply ships etc. The current AI mod build great for hi hyper speed races (its well noticeable on beyond where dhayuts ai stack more 40% of hyperspeed from racial admirals and zap thru galaxy helping alliance members)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 4:36:27 PM   
Hikikomori

 

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Status: offline 		I find it rather difficult to find a use for a supply ship before they become practically obsolete with the extended ranges that the better cells and drives allow.

The AI should be even more pressed to use them properly. Apart from pirates i do not see real use for them.

They are too expensive and too late to build/research. When i have them, i usually don't need them anymore.
Its far more reliable and easy to sacrifice a little space for additional fuel cells than to maintain and protect supply ships.

< Message edited by Hikikomori -- 8/27/2014 6:04:13 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 6:23:45 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
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Status: offline 		Well I agree with you. It should be not prioritized in race file queues, but Ai will get to end of queues and build them. Their design should be working - some races will be able to benefit from them at late stages (well more in beyond mod cause there races which have penalty to hyper navigation speed...which is solved with proper secondary population)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 6:47:38 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori

I find it rather difficult to find a use for a supply ship before they become practically obsolete with the extended ranges that the better cells and drives allow.

The AI should be even more pressed to use them properly. Apart from pirates i do not see real use for them.

They are too expensive and too late to build/research. When i have them, i usually don't need them anymore.
Its far more reliable and easy to sacrifice a little space for additional fuel cells than to maintain and protect supply ships.


How about throwing some spice in and moving them down the research que and letting them be built early game when they actually can be really useful? This would definitely help the AI!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/27/2014 7:48:57 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 7:18:41 PM   
Hikikomori

 

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Status: offline 		I would like that too, not just for the AI.

I have early on always trouble with my explorers turning around halfway. With the more gradual(and awesome btw) and slower early hyperdrives of AI-Mod/Research Rebalanced it just got a lot "worse".

I always thought it would be cool to send them a supply ship that extends their range, but you have to decide between supply ships, or advanced construction(one of those anyway) or damage control. All are rather expensive, tier 3 i believe. It just makes more sense to get increased construction size(and speed) and cram a couple additional fuel cells in there than to use a supply ship.

If it was a cheap start tech, it would be at least viable. But to function properly they have to be rather big.
I would prefer them unarmed, but with a construction size bonus, and a prerequisite like "must have 20% docking bays" etc.

But maybe a 230 supplyship would work too.

< Message edited by Hikikomori -- 8/27/2014 8:20:59 PM >

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Post #: 552
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 7:33:39 PM   
Blackstork


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Status: offline 		I agree with both 2 last posts, i think this could be best solution for the issue and question.

Making them viable will create more options for different approach in gameplay both for humans and ais, deleting whole concept is much worse solution than attempt to fix it.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 7:33:59 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hikikomori

I would like that too, not just for the AI.

I have early on always trouble with my explorers turning around halfway. With the more gradual(and awesome btw) and slower early hyperdrives of AI-Mod/Research Rebalanced it just got a lot "worse".

I always thought it would be cool to send them a supply ship that extends their range, but you have to decide between supply ships, or advanced construction(one of those anyway) or damage control. All are rather expensive, tier 3 i believe. It just makes more sense to get increased construction size(and speed) and cram a couple additional fuel cells in there than to use a supply ship.

If it was a cheap start tech, it would be at least viable. But to function properly they have to be rather big.
I would prefer them unarmed, but with a construction size bonus, and a prerequisite like "must have 20% docking bays" etc.

But maybe a 230 supplyship would work too.


Exactly they would have to be very weak and fragile fuel ships so they could fit into the 230 size so they would need to be escorted. And yes they would be so much more useful early game. Would be super useful for pirates too! Im really liking this idea!


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/27/2014 8:35:10 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/27/2014 8:03:21 PM   
Hikikomori

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/16/2014
Status: offline 		Normally it is a bad thing to remove strategic decisions from a 4X game, but in the case of a almost never used concept i propose incorporating supply ships with a more useful and related research.

I don't know what to do with the shipyard wonder tech though, it is a dead end tech atm, and without supplyships it is maybe too unattractive.

But i would include supply ships in either standard fuel cells, or, if we do not want it to be in another research tree, in one of the early construction techs. Both variants have either an tier 2 or tier 3 option, which would move it one or two tiers down and away from a dead end.

Both variants would also have the advantage of enabling the player to incorporate supply ships into the next designs, and plan their layout with them in mind, already looking for suitable locations for placing them.



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Post #: 555
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 12:42:21 AM   
PsyKoSnake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

At the moment Resupply Ships are not used by the AI's in this Mod (well until they get beyond the Research Orders built anyway). That reflects my personal preferences.

Human players will be able to use the designs if they want now that I've fixed the docking bays, coming in 1.02.

The question I have for you all is whether I should change the AI's here to use Resupply Ships. Military Ships in the Mod have a lot more fuel cells than Vanilla, a lot more range, and they need to refuel far less frequently. The Research needed would slow down something else e.g. Construction Size research. Does this really help the AI?



I dont think the ressuply ship will help the Ai much, with the optimized design

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Post #: 556
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 4:35:36 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		Here's your dang defeat screen! Darn bugs attacking my home planet! Ive lost my main space port! Now if you could get the AI to invade planets more we would really be screwed!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/28/2014 5:41:27 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 11:06:27 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Let's talk tactics, preliminary thoughts are as follows.

TacticsWeaker and TacticsStronger
Apply Point Blank for:

(a) Any race with Beam & Wave Weapons because it's fundamental to the weapon type (Gizurean, Mechanoid, Sluken, Wekkarus, Phaerax, Yl'ta)
(b) Torpedoes if the race is Aggressive (Boskara, Kiadian, Shakturi, Keskudon)

Otherwise All Weapons as that is appropriate for other weapons types.

Used for Military Ships and Base/Ports/Stations.

InvasionTactics and FleeWhen

(a) For Aggressive races, Invade Immediately and Never Flee
(b) For Passive races, Invade When Clear and Shields at 20%

Used for Military Ships.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/28/2014 12:25:03 PM >

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Post #: 558
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 11:24:33 AM   
Icemania


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Status: offline 		With Pirates, I'll assume they are Aggressive, using the above.

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Post #: 559
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 11:25:27 AM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
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Status: offline 		I think fleeing at 20% is big improvement for any Ai cause Ai will actually save its ships and retreat them from battle opposed to leaving them in the fray for few moments and lose them.
At least big expensive ships could be flee 20% shields. I got impression that this improves a is fleet survival at grand measure.
If there were another parameter which defines overpower ratio to allow/disallow fleeng....

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 8/28/2014 12:27:41 PM >

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Post #: 560
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 12:05:57 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
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Status: offline 		There are a couple of reasons to have a mix of flee with Shields at 20% and Never Flee.

For a race using Beams, they can take a bit of damage getting to Point Blank range in the first place, and then they have a battle changing advantage.

For a human playing the AI it's going to be harder if more Empires and Pirates are persistent in attack. You might still win the battle but you'll take more losses as well.

Also I'd like to keep some tactical variety between the races.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/28/2014 1:06:18 PM >

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Post #: 561
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 12:20:37 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		I agree on beam users but I'd keep flee at 20% for long rangers and fighter uses since they are in disadvantage in point blank and Ai just rewarp ships sometimes and it does not harm consistency of his attacks. Missile capital ships benefit from 20% shields much more than point blank. Human can just play carefully and defensively and engage in war of attrition vs outnumbering ais.
Player can outmaneuver and catch Ai ships with outnumbering force but that won't be easy without hyperdeny BC Ai will flee in time.

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 8/28/2014 1:22:44 PM >

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Post #: 562
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 12:44:54 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
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Status: offline 		Fair enough. I'd like to keep Never Flee for Aggressive Races using Torpedoes as they also use Point Blank. The Passive Races using Torpedoes can fleet at 20% as they use All Weapons. This will give a different flavour to how Torpedoes are used by different races.

I'm playing a test game with the Boskara at the moment and these new tactics are awesome!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/28/2014 1:45:15 PM >

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Post #: 563
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 12:55:56 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
• Even with the correct Construction Size technology and plenty of available cashflow there is a delay before the AI will build Capital Ships. Please advise what the trigger is or remove the delay if hardcoded.

This wasn't mentioned as fixed in the 1.9.5.8 Beta patch notes but is anyone else seeing an improvement here? Looks like it's been fixed.

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Post #: 564
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 1:16:34 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Here's your dang defeat screen! Darn bugs attacking my home planet! Ive lost my main space port! Now if you could get the AI to invade planets more we would really be screwed!

Cool dude! In a test game at the moment, I'm watching an AI that started larger than the other empires. They have 4 fleets. Individually they don't have the forces to invade the homeworld of an enemy nearby (they wiped everything else out) but if 2-3 of those fleets combined, the homeworld would have been conquered long ago. One for Erik and Elliot I would suggest.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/28/2014 2:17:11 PM >

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Post #: 565
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 1:18:03 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Looks like one of the fighter/bomber focused races is causing trouble for others

http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/discussions/0/35222218635829277/

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Post #: 566
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 3:34:04 PM   
lurchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
If lurchi add more Super Weapons for other weapons types I would like to see more of it.


Most weapons have them in Research Reloaded.

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Post #: 567
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 3:38:17 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		Most destructive weapon are cookies (not browser ones) which bring races to Dark Side.

BTW Icemania, you can test AI mod on Beyond with Such-Oos now and see how they pile their friends versus own enemies and treats. Diplomacy race combined with AI mod is something awful to have as your opponent, even if it seems to be peaceful weakling race :D Once they will have tractor beam to protect their colonies from sneaky troop invasions they could be completely awful thing to face as AI, because of political pressure they can create and pile even neutral alliance races on you.

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 8/28/2014 4:41:34 PM >

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Post #: 568
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 3:38:40 PM   
lurchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Ive integrated Dwaines wonder balances into your mod.


Both wonders and governments will be integrated into Research Reloaded once balanced. I'd be way happier with turning most wonders into facilities to level the field even further, but that's impossible so far.

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Post #: 569
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release) - 8/28/2014 4:00:52 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Looks like one of the fighter/bomber focused races is causing trouble for others

http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/discussions/0/35222218635829277/


Cool.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 570
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