Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

warspite1

What!!?? A Scot blaming the Tories? Whatever next?

Seriously though, that does not surprise me one bit. The way the whole no campaign has been run has been total and utter bollocks.

Shameful

It was Better Together's to win...it was thrown away. I think it would likely have come back at some point - but it was there to win this time around and the win was discarded.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

warspite1

Thank-you JD.

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

warspite1

Thank-you JD.

You never know Warspite1 - it might well stay as is. It's not over till the fat lady sings. Part of me hopes so for people like you who genuinely feel that way - but there is that other part of me I'm afraid.

Either way - I will not be running about bragging about a YES. Even if there's a NO result, life will go on...

Peace

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

Oh? You've not spoken to most Russians then?

ETA: To whit:

It's a sort of cognitive dissonance that most people that wanted independence are unlikely to fairly gauge 'what could have been' had a union been maintained. I think they're far more likely to see what novel things they now have than what they've lost forevermore-particularly if the latter is esoteric (global influence, relevance, etc).

I also think there's a different perspective depending on whether you're the 'winner' of independence or the 'loser' of that province / nation state from your union.

Lastly, are there many Russian speakers in Scotland? There may be precedence for someone somewhere giving succor to Russian speakers that are yearning for independence in that area.

[other stuff written and redacted]

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together

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ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

Oh? You've not spoken to most Russians then?

ETA: To whit:

It's a sort of cognitive dissonance that most people that wanted independence are unlikely to fairly gauge 'what could have been' had a union been maintained. I think they're far more likely to see what novel things they now have than what they've lost forevermore-particularly if the latter is esoteric (global influence, relevance, etc).

I also think there's a different perspective depending on whether you're the 'winner' of independence or the 'loser' of that province / nation state from your union.

Lastly, are there many Russian speakers in Scotland? There may be precedence for someone somewhere giving succor to Russian speakers that are yearning for independence in that area.

[other stuff written and redacted]

Fair point. No Russians. I think the matter at hand is about the ostensibly ruling factor understanding the desire of the independence seeker - and understanding why they feel independence is a better and viable option. As some one who regards myself as first, British, I do understand why some factions of a 'Union' or 'Empire' wish to stand on their own two feet without outside influence.

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ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Hmmm - I do understand your point. I think that times have changed and situations are a bit different. The 19th and early 20th Century were hotbeds of nationalism which aren't so relevant now in such a global atmosphere.

Also, is the point I mentioned earlier, areas craving independence on economic, religious or economic grounds. I do not condone manic independence for independence sake but Scotland does have an historic tradition that makes itself an historic nation with an historical nation identity far, far beyond many more recent unions.

Edit: But. yes, it would be a blow

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Hmmm - I do understand your point. I think that times have changed and situations are a bit different. The 19th and early 20th Century were hotbeds of nationalism which aren't so relevant now in such a global atmosphere.

Also, is the point I mentioned earlier, areas craving independence on economic, religious or economic grounds. I do not condone manic independence for independence sake but Scotland does have an historic tradition that makes itself an historic nation with an historical nation identity far, far beyond many more recent unions.

Edit: But. yes, it would be a blow

Aye, but couldn't you argue that Scotland's nationalistic quest for independence in the 21st century is rather relevant here? In such a global atmosphere, it (Scottish independence) seems all the more irrelevant.

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together

Well, it's to be expected, really. Put an Irish, Scottish and English regiment in the same proximity and a fracas is bound to be started.

[looks at picture again]

Oh....fighting together on the same side? You're right, old bean, that is unusual!

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together

Well, it's to be expected, really. Put an Irish, Scottish and English regiment in the same proximity and a fracas is bound to be started.

[looks at picture again]

Oh....fighting together on the same side? You're right, old bean, that is unusual!

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ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

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ORIGINAL: Treale

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ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

I'm not familiar with British political parties. Are Tories liberal or conservative?

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

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ORIGINAL: Treale

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ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

I'm not familiar with British political parties. Are Tories liberal or conservative?

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ORIGINAL: berto

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

But is it done?

So if there's a NO vote today, what's to stop the pro-YES forces from scheduling a vote next year, the year after that, ..., year after year until the tide ultimately turns their way or one year they just get lucky?

It's a one-way ratchet, right? And what's to stop separatists from keep trying that ratchet until it takes, and locks in place?

If so, isn't independence happening sooner or later? And if so, why not now, just to get it over and done with?

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

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ORIGINAL: Treale

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ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

I'm not familiar with British political parties. Are Tories liberal or conservative?

Scots tend to vote the left parties (if Labour can be called left). Scotland out => UK (without Scotland) lose a lot of "left" votes ergo the right *wins*

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Warspite1 - you've thrown a rock right throw my window!

I was pretty sure I was going to be elated if it was a yes vote...but after reading your very heartfelt post, I am actually going to have very mixed feelings tomorrow.

If YES win, I'll be elated but I will genuinely feel for people like yourself who will have a feeling of losing something
If NO win, I'll be gutted it's the second time Scotland will have chucked this opportunity away - but I'll be happy for you, my mother (who also feels British) and others all over the country.

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

I kind of hope you get what you want...but not...that's how confused I am.

Anyway - peace to you all. I hope whatever happens we all get on after

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

There is a reason the Romans couldn't defeat Scotland. I didn't realize this before but the Scots are not a Germanic tribe like the English, like it really matter now but it helps me to understand the basic need for independence.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Funny thing is the Scottish get a better deal per head than the English..and if it's a no vote it will get even better.

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ORIGINAL: Treale

I would have thought that the Scots were a conservative bunch?

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ORIGINAL: loki100

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Warspite1 - you've thrown a rock right throw my window!

I was pretty sure I was going to be elated if it was a yes vote...but after reading your very heartfelt post, I am actually going to have very mixed feelings tomorrow.

If YES win, I'll be elated but I will genuinely feel for people like yourself who will have a feeling of losing something
If NO win, I'll be gutted it's the second time Scotland will have chucked this opportunity away - but I'll be happy for you, my mother (who also feels British) and others all over the country.

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

I kind of hope you get what you want...but not...that's how confused I am.

Anyway - peace to you all. I hope whatever happens we all get on after

wonderful post and well said ...

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

There is a reason the Romans couldn't defeat Scotland. I didn't realize this before but the Scots are not a Germanic tribe like the English, like it really matter now but it helps me to understand the basic need for independence.

.... err Lowland Scots which is either a language in its own right, or a very strong dialect of English, and spoken (to a greater or lesser degree) across Lowland Scotland is actually grounded on medieval German (its actually what English would be if it hadn't absorbed so much French). Doric (Aberdeen) and the dialects of Orkney and Shetlands are actually close to Norwegian ...

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Funny thing is the Scottish get a better deal per head than the English..and if it's a no vote it will get even better.

well we do pay for it fully in taxes collected from Scotland, we contribute about 9.6% of the UK's GNP and about 9.3% of expenditure can be identified as being spent in Scotland. Check out the various GERS (Govt expenditure and revenue: Scotland) reports.

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ORIGINAL: Treale

I would have thought that the Scots were a conservative bunch?

In a way the reason for this referendum is that Scotland has ended up having more in common politically and socially with social democratic Scandinavia than with the parties that run the UK Govt.

Should add, esp in Scotland the concept of *liberal* in a party sense has 2 meanings. One group are more or less the normal right of centre economically, left of centre socially that are to be found across the UK. The other group have their roots in the presbytyrian non-comformism that is still quite powerful in places like the islands off the West Coast and some regions in the north. The two don't really have much in common but a series of mergers sort of ended up with them in the same party.

So among the strands of politics here is a socially very conservative, but on other ways quite radical tinge. Their motto is more or less 'I bow my knee to no man but god' ... when formulated in the seventeenth century that was the stuff of revolution (& enduring top of the line misogyny ... thank you John Knox for that part of Scotland's social legacy)

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In 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £48.1 billion (8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £53.1 billion (9.1% of UK total public sector revenue).

In 2012-13, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other parts of the public sector, plus a per capita share of UK debt interest payments, was £65.2 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.

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ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

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ORIGINAL: loki100

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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Warspite1 - you've thrown a rock right throw my window!

I was pretty sure I was going to be elated if it was a yes vote...but after reading your very heartfelt post, I am actually going to have very mixed feelings tomorrow.

If YES win, I'll be elated but I will genuinely feel for people like yourself who will have a feeling of losing something
If NO win, I'll be gutted it's the second time Scotland will have chucked this opportunity away - but I'll be happy for you, my mother (who also feels British) and others all over the country.

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

I kind of hope you get what you want...but not...that's how confused I am.

Anyway - peace to you all. I hope whatever happens we all get on after

wonderful post and well said ...

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

There is a reason the Romans couldn't defeat Scotland. I didn't realize this before but the Scots are not a Germanic tribe like the English, like it really matter now but it helps me to understand the basic need for independence.

.... err Lowland Scots which is either a language in its own right, or a very strong dialect of English, and spoken (to a greater or lesser degree) across Lowland Scotland is actually grounded on medieval German (its actually what English would be if it hadn't absorbed so much French). Doric (Aberdeen) and the dialects of Orkney and Shetlands are actually close to Norwegian ...

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Funny thing is the Scottish get a better deal per head than the English..and if it's a no vote it will get even better.

well we do pay for it fully in taxes collected from Scotland, we contribute about 9.6% of the UK's GNP and about 9.3% of expenditure can be identified as being spent in Scotland. Check out the various GERS (Govt expenditure and revenue: Scotland) reports.

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ORIGINAL: Treale

I would have thought that the Scots were a conservative bunch?

In a way the reason for this referendum is that Scotland has ended up having more in common politically and socially with social democratic Scandinavia than with the parties that run the UK Govt.

Should add, esp in Scotland the concept of *liberal* in a party sense has 2 meanings. One group are more or less the normal right of centre economically, left of centre socially that are to be found across the UK. The other group have their roots in the presbytyrian non-comformism that is still quite powerful in places like the islands off the West Coast and some regions in the north. The two don't really have much in common but a series of mergers sort of ended up with them in the same party.

So among the strands of politics here is a socially very conservative, but on other ways quite radical tinge. Their motto is more or less 'I bow my knee to no man but god' ... when formulated in the seventeenth century that was the stuff of revolution (& enduring top of the line misogyny ... thank you John Knox for that part of Scotland's social legacy)

GERS is indeed pretty clear:

quote:


In 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £48.1 billion (8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £53.1 billion (9.1% of UK total public sector revenue).

In 2012-13, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other parts of the public sector, plus a per capita share of UK debt interest payments, was £65.2 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.

So that even with the (heavily pro-Yes) geographical share of the oil money, 9.1% of revenue, but took 9.3% of expenditure. Otherwise 8.2% revenue, 9.3% expenditure.
http://scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/03/7888

So not sure where your figures are from, perhaps you can cite them.

Cheers

Pip

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805