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Scots Vote - 9/17/2014 3:32:25 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. There was no way but a popular (50% +1) vote on the day? How did that number (50%) get enshrined instead of the previous 40% or 60% or 66.6% (two-thirds) or 75% (three-quarters)?

Sorry dippy typing.

In effect what I meant was of the votes caste tomorrow, the side with one more vote than the other wins. Since its a binary choice (Yes/No) one side will get at least 50% of the vote, plus one more.

Unless of course we really are thrawn enough (a good Scots word) to go and actually split evenly ... God knows what happens then

loki100, your typing was clear and understandable. What I don't understand (still) is how 50%+1 could be identified as a meaningful percentage for such a monumentally important referendum.

I attempted to humorously point out that 50%+1 of people can be an ephemeral majority whose collective judgement can be seen (in retrospect) to be fleeting and illogical.

Why not set the up/down vote of the day % basis at a more demanding 60% / 66.6% / 75%? There's precedence elsewhere.

ETA: Changed the subject line to reflect the OP topic.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 9/17/2014 4:38:04 PM >

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 3:37:57 PM

radic202

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Thanks loki100 for the quick history lesson.

I particular like this:

quote:

Scottish battalions served both the French and the English

This is loosely based on my history knowledge so not 100% accurate: French Canadians who had been forced to bow to British Rule with the despised act of Quebec where actually the first to come to the aide of the British with their Amerindian Friends (Iroquois, Metis, Mohawks etc...)when the Americans tried to invade Canada in the War of 1812. They basically felt that British rule at that time was better for them then if the Americans had totally pushed the English out of North America. They rather be surrounded by 1 Million Protestant English Canadians then 10 million Yanks. In a way and without prior-knowledge, after the defeat of the Americans, the British changed a huge bunch of articles which lead to more French language rights and of course more Catholic rights, officially written in years later as "The British North America Act of 1867" hence now why Quebec has managed to keep themselves strong and "distinct" in a sea of 450 Million English Speaking North Americans.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 3:40:33 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
a sea of 450 Million English Speaking North Americans.

Eh?

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 3:53:29 PM

radic202

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
a sea of 450 Million English Speaking North Americans.

Eh?

Oops make it 350 Million USA = 313 and Canada = 37 million (+/- 6 million French Speaking Canadians.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 3:56:29 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
a sea of 450 Million English Speaking North Americans.

Eh?

Oops make it 350 Million USA = 313 and Canada = 37 million (+/- 6 million French Speaking Canadians.

Better.

So you're not rising to my bait on Alan Thicke and his ilk?

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 4:03:28 PM

radic202

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
a sea of 450 Million English Speaking North Americans.

Eh?

Oops make it 350 Million USA = 313 and Canada = 37 million (+/- 6 million French Speaking Canadians.

Better.

So you're not rising to my bait on Alan Thicke and his ilk?

No, entertainers are not my cup of tea have as much fun insulting them, making fun of them or whatever, whether they are Canucks, Yanks, Aussies, Kiwis or British.....except if you are from Greece and are called Angelina Jolie..............

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 4:04:36 PM

Bill Durrant

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Just my small input into the debate.

I regard myself as first British, second English and third European. I have, and always will have, a closer affinity with the home nations and regularly cheer them on at sporting events unless they are playing England. This isn't always reciprocated :-) I don't wish the Union to cease as I agree that our collective presence is better.

However, I have worked with and become friends with many people who have gained independence or greater independence in recent history. Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Cyprus, Kosovo, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc. They all seem to agree that although greater independence is not an easy road in the beginning it brings hope for future generations. Now, I do agree not every situation reflects another.

All said and done - Scotland, if you vote 'No' tomorrow then you will be welcomed to continue in the Union. The fact that you a separate nation is never doubted and I fully understand a wish of decentralised power - however far that may go. If you vote "Yes' I will personally have no hard feeling and wish you the very best in establishing a modern independent country that you will be proud of.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 4:15:42 PM

Chickenboy

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Bill,

That was right pleasant and gentlemanly of you.

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment if I may: Have you had discussions with denizens of countries for which the efforts towards an independent state have brought naught but ruinous calamity? Or at the very least, a slide toward unified irrelevance? For there certainly are those examples by the roadside of history as well.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 4:26:59 PM

Bill Durrant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Bill,

That was right pleasant and gentlemanly of you.

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment if I may: Have you had discussions with denizens of countries for which the efforts towards an independent state have brought naught but ruinous calamity? Or at the very least, a slide toward unified irrelevance? For there certainly are those examples by the roadside of history as well.

Well each country has its own peculiarities and reasons for wanting independence. Some on economic grounds, some religious, and some just plain historical. Some are still fairly divided Bosnia and Cyprus for instance. Some are riddled with corrupt practices that weren't so prevalent before. However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 5:17:35 PM

radic202

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Just my small input into the debate.

I regard myself as first British, second English and third European. I have, and always will have, a closer affinity with the home nations and regularly cheer them on at sporting events unless they are playing England. This isn't always reciprocated :-) I don't wish the Union to cease as I agree that our collective presence is better.

However, I have worked with and become friends with many people who have gained independence or greater independence in recent history. Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Cyprus, Kosovo, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc. They all seem to agree that although greater independence is not an easy road in the beginning it brings hope for future generations. Now, I do agree not every situation reflects another.

All said and done - Scotland, if you vote 'No' tomorrow then you will be welcomed to continue in the Union. The fact that you a separate nation is never doubted and I fully understand a wish of decentralised power - however far that may go. If you vote "Yes' I will personally have no hard feeling and wish you the very best in establishing a modern independent country that you will be proud of.

Bill, that was awesome.

In a context like this, emotions play a large role. I still have family members who do not speak to each other and even boycott family weddings and funerals because of all the infighting that occurred during our 2 Referendums. And that was 20 years ago! Again all based on emotions, especially in my case with a French Canadian Catholic Father and an English Canadian Protestant Nova-Scotian Mother and my sister and I caught in the middle. And in Canada like in Scotland we do not use guns or weapons to argue, I can just imagine how it was like in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Chechnya etc.....

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 6:27:45 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Scotland, a conquered nation? I don't think so.

Re the Queen and out of curiosity, why is that a personal dilemma?

With all due respect to you warspite1, I am probably the most anti-monarchist there is. The most anti-democratic form of political Leadership that has ever existed and the fact that it continues in this day and age confuses the heck out of me. I leave it at that as to not derail this Thread.

warspite1

Fine, I don't take it personally

- I just wanted to understand your earlier comment.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 6:31:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

mmhh, we can an off line debate as to which of us is the most anti-monarchist . I fancy turning a variety of Royal 'palaces' in Scotland to a more democratic use when we get around to sensible land reform . Chazza et al, can attend on the same basis as the rest of the population if they so wish.

warspite1

I wouldn't be so sure

This is Salmond's new residence come Friday. Mind you, it was in the Daily Mail so may not be entirely true

Attachment (1)

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:01:47 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Just my small input into the debate.

I regard myself as first British, second English and third European. I have, and always will have, a closer affinity with the home nations and regularly cheer them on at sporting events unless they are playing England. This isn't always reciprocated :-) I don't wish the Union to cease as I agree that our collective presence is better.

However, I have worked with and become friends with many people who have gained independence or greater independence in recent history. Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Cyprus, Kosovo, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc. They all seem to agree that although greater independence is not an easy road in the beginning it brings hope for future generations. Now, I do agree not every situation reflects another.

All said and done - Scotland, if you vote 'No' tomorrow then you will be welcomed to continue in the Union. The fact that you a separate nation is never doubted and I fully understand a wish of decentralised power - however far that may go. If you vote "Yes' I will personally have no hard feeling and wish you the very best in establishing a modern independent country that you will be proud of.

What a nice post and sentiment and I for one thank you for your sincerity and good will.

Whilst I live in England, work in England, drink in England, have many, many English friends, served in HM Forces, have a beautiful English wife and 2 fantastic English daughters - I want a different Scotland to what Westminster will ever provide.

Scotland will not be a utopia after the vote and I fear anyone wanting quick change will be sorely disappointed.

As for the negotiations afterwards - I do hope for the best for both. I hope both sides work to the betterment of each side. I certainly do not want to see any bitterness. Alex Salmonds insistence on a currency union is one example of attitude arrogance I do not want to see him continue with. Though the Westminster politicians are not without blame...but I totally understand they have a corner to fight.

I fear a NO vote more than I actually do a YES vote and that is mainly because there WILL be a backlash from rUK regarding the powers currently on offer...the people of rUK do not appreciate Westminster throwing powers to Holyrood - and I totally understand that sentiment. When they did it I cringed at the thought of what people must think. There's already a backlash from MP's in Westminster - and I can totally understand why.

For the record, whilst Holyrood exists, there is a clause where it can be removed and stripped of power whenever Westminster decides to do so...that clause is allegedly in the Devolution Agreement somewhere.

Regardless - as I've said all the way through...no hard feelings whatever the result.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:15:21 PM

rodney727

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Can you keep us posted on this historic event? Learning a lot from both sides. I find this very fascinating and a good history lesson.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:19:53 PM

warspite1

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I'm not sure when will know the result or even when we'll get a real idea of what is going on, but I suspect I'll stay up for it if there is any sort of program. Its too momentous - I probably won't sleep anyway....

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:25:57 PM

rodney727

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Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:33:02 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:53:56 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I'm not sure when will know the result or even when we'll get a real idea of what is going on, but I suspect I'll stay up for it if there is any sort of program. Its too momentous - I probably won't sleep anyway....

according to the lady with a lovely Highland accent (who is in charge of administering the vote) on the Today programme, she reckons it'll be known by 07.00 (UK time). It was so funny when she bridled at John Humphrey's suggestion that there could be any hiccups (as she patiently explained plans to use boats, small planes, helicopters and god knows what to bring the votes in from the more remote areas).

The problem is that Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow will declare last (in that order), all things being equal. Given that Glasgow has roughly 20% of the population it will mean nothing is sure to right to the end. An opinion poll in our local evening paper (admittedly a few weeks back) indicated the city would vote yes by about 45-39 (the rest declaring as unknown), if so and given that Edinburgh will vote No, its not going to be clear till the end (unless everyone is utterly wrong about the rough 50/50 split).

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

The fact the (potentially) a single person could decide whether half of Scotland are stripped of the citizenship they want to keep doesn't sit well with me either. I think that the key 'realism' that the Yes are losing sight of is that once there is a Yes vote all the leverage is gone. I don't believe that enough Yes understand the anger that the rest of Britain has that a tiny % get to break up our nation. There are far better ways of fixing broken politics than taking your ball and going home (something of a childish metaphor, but it seems most apt). Want a fairer society? Use the taxing powers that already exists (and the broader ones already set to come online in 2016) to build it. Show the rest of the UK a better way - it's not like there aren't a lot of people who feel the same way.

Cheers

Pip

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

Yes, the SNP manifesto had a commitment to a referendum. But remember our electoral system is designed to ensure no party has a majority (votes on the second 'list' system are weighted inversely to success on the first past the post vote), so while they expected to be the largest party, they didn't expect a clear majority.

The current SNP leadership are gradualists. They had a strategy of establishing the SNP as the natural party of the Scottish Parliament over 2-3 terms, then raise the issue of independence. Some suspect that left to himself, for Salmond and a few others, more devolution would have been fine. It was Cameron who had the brain wave of forcing a vote (to, in his fantasy, kill off independence before the SNP built the consensus they wanted). It was also Cameron (the same cunning plan) who ensured no 'devo-max' was on the ballot paper. In effect, left to themselves the SNP would have grumbled about independence but not pushed the issue.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:56:12 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

Oh? You've not spoken to most Russians then?

ETA: To whit:

It's a sort of cognitive dissonance that most people that wanted independence are unlikely to fairly gauge 'what could have been' had a union been maintained. I think they're far more likely to see what novel things they now have than what they've lost forevermore-particularly if the latter is esoteric (global influence, relevance, etc).

I also think there's a different perspective depending on whether you're the 'winner' of independence or the 'loser' of that province / nation state from your union.

Lastly, are there many Russian speakers in Scotland? There may be precedence for someone somewhere giving succor to Russian speakers that are yearning for independence in that area.

[other stuff written and redacted]

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 9/17/2014 9:07:50 PM >

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 7:58:22 PM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I'm not sure when will know the result ...

The Chief Counting Officer is predicting announcement of the result Friday morning 0630 to 0730 BST.

Whatever the vote, I hope that it turns out well for all concerned.

I want an independent North Essex. I too hate being ruled from Westminster.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Post #: 110

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:03:16 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

Thanks loki100 for the quick history lesson.

I particular like this:
quote:

Scottish battalions served both the French and the English

This is loosely based on my history knowledge so not 100% accurate: French Canadians who had been forced to bow to British Rule with the despised act of Quebec where actually the first to come to the aide of the British with their Amerindian Friends (Iroquois, Metis, Mohawks etc...)when the Americans tried to invade Canada in the War of 1812. They basically felt that British rule at that time was better for them then if the Americans had totally pushed the English out of North America.

to return to computer games ...

One of the very best that AGEOD have produced is the gem Wars in America. With my usual sparring partner (Narwhal) we did the 'French and Indian Wars' then the 1812 scenario. Agree it was very odd, playing as Perfidious Albion, to in one be trying to break into enemy Canada and in the other be fending off the Americans. Also as the British in the 1812 scenario, the French Canadian battalions you get are really valuable, to do to the Americans exactly what they did to the British 40 years earlier

Another of their gems is Rise of Prussia (7 Years war in Europe), which has some bearing to the events of the 1745 revolt in Scotland. One of the best Prussian generals (after Freddie himself) is James Keith, who fought at Culloden (the battle that ended the revolt) for the Jacobites (he then served in Russia before Frederick offered him more money). In charge of the British forces in that game is the Earl of Cumberland (aka the Butcher of Culloden - for the post battle massacre of the wounded) who had been in charge of the Hannoverian forces (which happened to be about 80% lowland Scots). I always insist on a house rule that they cannot both serve in the same army ... I don't think they liked each other. Not least Keith was a superb general and Cumberland was someone 'you wouldn't send out to get your messages' (messages in Glasgow not being what they are in the rest of the anglophonic world)

Other cross overs, the British gave amnesties to Jacobite officers, from 1750 if they would go to serve for the Crown in N America. Many of the 'British' battalions that invaded French Canada were Scots who had fought against the British Crown in 1745.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/17/2014 9:24:27 PM >

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Post #: 111

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:03:17 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

warspite1

What!!?? A Scot blaming the Tories? Whatever next?

Seriously though, that does not surprise me one bit. The way the whole no campaign has been run has been total and utter bollocks.

Shameful

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Post #: 112

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:11:19 PM

loki100

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delete, posted in error ...

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/17/2014 9:12:18 PM >

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Post #: 113

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:12:07 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It wasn't so long ago that 50% of Canadians thought Justin Bieber, Alan Thicke or Celine Dion were good ideas.

warspite1

Come now CB you protesteth too much. I heard you were a Belieber.....

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Post #: 114

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:14:34 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It wasn't so long ago that 50% of Canadians thought Justin Bieber, Alan Thicke or Celine Dion were good ideas.

warspite1

Come now CB you protesteth too much. I heard you were a Belieber.....

Nope. I learned my lesson after having to get that expensive and painful tatoo of Kim Jong Il removed from my arse. Never again with any fleeting celebrity cause!

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Post #: 115

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:18:14 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It wasn't so long ago that 50% of Canadians thought Justin Bieber, Alan Thicke or Celine Dion were good ideas.

warspite1

Come now CB you protesteth too much. I heard you were a Belieber.....

Nope. I learned my lesson after having to get that expensive and painful tatoo of Kim Jong Il removed from my arse. Never again with any fleeting celebrity cause!

warspite1

You too! Small world....

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Post #: 116

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:19:24 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I, for one, won't be upset. The UK is fast becoming stagnant after a long period of decline. The breakup of the Union would revitalize politics in the British Isles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

warspite1

What!!?? A Scot blaming the Tories? Whatever next?

Seriously though, that does not surprise me one bit. The way the whole no campaign has been run has been total and utter bollocks.

Shameful

To be quite honest, you could throw money and talent at the No Campaign and they'd still be facing an uphill struggle. Labour still has Blair hanging over them, the Lib Dems have exiled themselves for another couple of years with tution fees and the AV vote and as for the Tories - it's Scotland we're talking about.

That said, the No Campaign has been shambolic. With the biased coverage on the news and in the papers, as well as the conventient anti-independence "leaks", they've really made the Yes campaign's jobs easier.

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Post #: 117

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:20:28 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

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(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 118

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:22:03 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Thank you mr. W. I can tell that this effects not only you but many others very deeply.

warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

warspite1

Thank-you JD.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 119

RE: Scots Are they free - 9/17/2014 8:23:42 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

warspite1

What!!?? A Scot blaming the Tories? Whatever next?

Seriously though, that does not surprise me one bit. The way the whole no campaign has been run has been total and utter bollocks.

Shameful

It was Better Together's to win...it was thrown away. I think it would likely have come back at some point - but it was there to win this time around and the win was discarded.

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Alba gu' brath

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 120