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RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 4:08:22 PM

gexmex

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/13/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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I really enjoy CK2 alot, but I lost a lot of respect for Paradox when they canned their Cold War era game, and how they did it. Months and months of Johan and company emphatically the game would be released, and things moving along with very promising DDs. Then all of a sudden it got canceled with essentially no legitimate explanations as to why. Instead of charting new territory with a Cold War grand strategy title, they chose to go kick it to the curb and go with something they've tried 3 times already. It's boring, honestly. Despite the shiny new coat of paint and fancy ways to build divisions, what really changes? Paradox has just come up with a slightly different, prettier, easier way of doing the exact same things they've done before. And they've ditched the chain of command, which disappoints me greatly. That ship variant thing in the video is just a dumbed down version of the ship designer ripped off from the Cold War game. Sticks in my craw.

Having done all this ranting....I'm sure I'll cave at some point in the future and buy it when it goes on sale. I'm a sucker like that.

(in reply to major.pain)

Post #: 31

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 6:11:09 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

Having done all this ranting....I'm sure I'll cave at some point in the future and buy it when it goes on sale. I'm a sucker like that.

Even I do that from time to time. I even caved and bought HOI III for $4.99 on Gamersgate I think it were. As I recall though HOI III was a mess at release (Japan invades France or was it Finland I forget) and within weeks it was $3.99. That's the 2nd game they've made that got horrible reviews and went extremely down in price after release. Who doesn't remember Victoria at .99 cents just a few weeks after release?

But, seriously if anyone ever wonders why I call it a kids game or childs toy just play Brazil. I was able to conquer South America, build up an amphibious invasion force, invade up throught the boot of Italy, take over northern Africa and the first to march into Berlin. With Brazil now the saviour of the world lol. While it may have some detailed and complex elements it doesn't take away what a child might want to see happen in a WWII game. Hell, lets build a navy on the Fiji islands and sink the bismark while Johnny Horton sings in the background.

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Post #: 32

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 6:56:13 PM

major.pain

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If you were referring to the East Vs West game that got cancelled in favor of getting HOI IV out the door i was told by a friend who follows Paradox rather closely that the East Vs West will be released later on down the line as an expansion for HOI IV.
Maybe you will get the game after all.....

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 33

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 7:33:47 PM

gexmex

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/13/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: M J R

If you were referring to the East Vs West game that got cancelled in favor of getting HOI IV out the door i was told by a friend who follows Paradox rather closely that the East Vs West will be released later on down the line as an expansion for HOI IV.
Maybe you will get the game after all.....

That's the one! I couldn't remember the name exactly. I would be more interested in having that add on than just straight up WWII. It's still kind of shady how Paradox will basically have cancelled the smaller devs game just to release it as DLC in their own game.

< Message edited by gexmex -- 9/4/2014 8:36:05 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 10:25:44 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
so I wouldn't say they are going downhill fast.

I was speaking about wargaming, not strategy gaming. Strategy games are about the underlying game mechanics and the storyline of a strategy game has little or nothing to do with the immersion factor. Wargames are about history, without historical accuracy wargamers lose interest, the underlying storyline makes all the difference to a wargamer.

HOI4 will be a strategy game, but you may as well rename the Germans to Side A and the French to Side B given what this preview showed, this isn�t going to be a wargame by a far cry. They may use history to guide some events that occur in game, but letting players design tanks equivalent to 2011 model tanks (or any other piece of hardware in game) according to one comment they made, is ridiculous. Calling it a game about WWII is false advertising if you ask me.

Jim

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Post #: 35

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 10:51:53 PM

wodin

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OK see your point..though there are many games out there that fail when it comes to mechanics are making the game historical..the latest I think is End of War. Not all Wars are the same and trying to fit a War like WW1 into an engine built for ACW wars and earlier is going to hit issues. With HOI it was an engine built for much earlier history and a far greater time scale. I do own HOI 3 and it's expansions and HOI Darkest Hour but confess to them barely being played. I did like the battleplan mechanic which took alot of micromanagement out of counter moving. I just find games with research and production a drag and soemtimes at the start of a game it seems countries are well behind what they would have been historically and it would take far longer to research so then again your behind even more. Just give me the combat in wargames and I'm happy (would deal with supply aswell).

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Post #: 36

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/4/2014 11:39:59 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK see your point..though there are many games out there that fail when it comes to mechanics are making the game historical..the latest I think is End of War. Not all Wars are the same and trying to fit a War like WW1 into an engine built for ACW wars and earlier is going to hit issues. With HOI it was an engine built for much earlier history and a far greater time scale. I do own HOI 3 and it's expansions and HOI Darkest Hour but confess to them barely being played. I did like the battleplan mechanic which took alot of micromanagement out of counter moving. I just find games with research and production a drag and soemtimes at the start of a game it seems countries are well behind what they would have been historically and it would take far longer to research so then again your behind even more. Just give me the combat in wargames and I'm happy (would deal with supply aswell).

Games like Steel Panthers? correct?

I'm the same way as I don't care for all the micromanagement either. But, I do like the randomness of the battles as I want something different everytime I play. Still based on WWII authenticity but still a whatif type battle. Sort of like the tv show "COMBAT" different things happened within the squad every episode. Not like a linear progression of events during the war as most grand scale games seem to do it.

I mean how much can one change the D-Day invasion or Battle of the Bulge? They happened the way they did and if a wargame is a good simulation of those battles then it will happen that way in the game. I just never could understand playing a game like that. If nothing can be changed then it's going to pan out the same way every time. It was kind of like playing Stalingrad by AH as a kid. I played the germans and always started out like the germans an always almost captured Moscow and Stalingrad. But, in just about every game (everyone gets lucky from time to time and rolls all 1's and 6's when they need to) the russians would always start getting those massive reinforcements and I'd get pushed out and back to the start line. I'm sure if the Germans had of rolled enough 1's and 6's during their assault they might have taken Moscow and Stalingrad too.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 37

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 12:04:32 AM

bairdlander2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Who doesn't remember Victoria at .99 cents just a few weeks after release?

I bought it several months after release and it was not 99 cents.Where do you get your information?

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 38

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 2:56:31 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex
I really enjoy CK2 alot, but I lost a lot of respect for Paradox when they canned their Cold War era game, and how they did it. Months and months of Johan and company emphatically the game would be released, and things moving along with very promising DDs. Then all of a sudden it got canceled with essentially no legitimate explanations as to why. Instead of charting new territory with a Cold War grand strategy title, they chose to go kick it to the curb and go with something they've tried 3 times already. It's boring, honestly. Despite the shiny new coat of paint and fancy ways to build divisions, what really changes? Paradox has just come up with a slightly different, prettier, easier way of doing the exact same things they've done before. And they've ditched the chain of command, which disappoints me greatly. That ship variant thing in the video is just a dumbed down version of the ship designer ripped off from the Cold War game. Sticks in my craw.

Having done all this ranting....I'm sure I'll cave at some point in the future and buy it when it goes on sale. I'm a sucker like that.

East vs West was going to be an incredibly bad trainwreck, based on what the leaked beta copies were like. It made perfect sense for Paradox to cancel it rather than throw away all of the "we don't release buggy crap anymore" goodwill they built up in the wake of CK2 and EU4

(in reply to gexmex)

Post #: 39

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 4:00:05 AM

gexmex

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/13/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

East vs West was going to be an incredibly bad trainwreck, based on what the leaked beta copies were like. It made perfect sense for Paradox to cancel it rather than throw away all of the "we don't release buggy crap anymore" goodwill they built up in the wake of CK2 and EU4

I guess it was more the way it was handled than anything. I just felt strung along for nothing. I didn't know about leaked betas, it seemed like everything was moving in the right direction. All I ever got to see were screenshots, so I know nothing.

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Post #: 40

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 4:36:32 AM

aaatoysandmore

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< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 9/5/2014 5:38:08 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 8:35:24 AM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well CK2 is one of my fav games and the coming DLC sounds superb..also EU IV is fun and that coming DLC also sounds superb..so I wouldn't say they are going downhill fast. AS for HOI being for kids..well it's beyond me to be honest. Infact I find the series one of the most complex grand strat wargames out there..

Have you exported your CK2 game into EU4? Just curious how well that works.

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Post #: 42

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 11:50:55 AM

pzgndr

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Will there be a Bolt mod for HOI 4? Haha. I got so fed up with HOI and Paradox years ago and moved on. I don't pay attention to them anymore.

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Post #: 43

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/5/2014 12:58:15 PM

gradenko2k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex
I guess it was more the way it was handled than anything. I just felt strung along for nothing. I didn't know about leaked betas, it seemed like everything was moving in the right direction. All I ever got to see were screenshots, so I know nothing.

The internet has sort of caused a shift in how much developers allow players to peek into gaming development, with things like developer diaries and forum discussions and straight-from-the-developer's-mouth tweets; if the developer wants to, we can see a whole lot more than the occasional preview from a 90s gaming magazine.

At the same time, it's important to note that only the most indie and the most candid of developers are ever going to tell you that things are not going well in their development, so it's important to be able to read between the lines.

With East vs West, it wasn't really all that surprising: all of the developer diaries focused on combat and production minutiae that really shouldn't matter at all. The devs tell us that you can totally customize your carrier's armament between a dozen different types of anti-aircraft cannon, and they went on and on about the strategic importance of straits (in New Zealand no less!), but we never heard a peep about diplomacy or guerrilla warfare or proxy wars or the smallest smidgen of actual Cold War politics.

Couple that with their "let's crowdsource leaders from forumgoers" campaign and the last minute change to beta access and it was rather predictable that it wouldn't have been a good game even if Paradox allowed it to be published.

(in reply to gexmex)

Post #: 44

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/11/2014 2:51:27 PM

undercovergeek

Posts: 1526
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I cannot rate the Paradox games or even the Creative Assembly games above that level though.
I'd have to put Paradox and Creative Assembly games in the "entry" level editions with a slight edge toward "intermediate" level of play but nothing like a WitP or WitE or World in Flames for sure. Even TOAW III I would rate very high toward the advanced catagory. Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy, even Ajoed games I'd rate a lot higher. So, while they may all be titled kiddie games in the sence you are promoting there are "levels" of kiddie games and that's where Paradox and Creative Assembly games stand now.

I wouldn't call the EU series,Victoria series or HOI series "entry" level strategy games.Have you ever tried any?Can you tell us which ones and the reason you consider them "entry" level strategy titles?

the silence since the rant speaks volumes - im going to go out on a ledge and guess at not a lot have been played

its ok aaatoysandmore, you and everyone else is allowed to play games Matrix didnt make

< Message edited by undercovergeek -- 9/11/2014 3:53:00 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/11/2014 2:55:26 PM

undercovergeek

Posts: 1526
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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

Having done all this ranting....I'm sure I'll cave at some point in the future and buy it when it goes on sale. I'm a sucker like that.

Even I do that from time to time. I even caved and bought HOI III for $4.99 on Gamersgate I think it were. As I recall though HOI III was a mess at release (Japan invades France or was it Finland I forget) and within weeks it was $3.99. That's the 2nd game they've made that got horrible reviews and went extremely down in price after release. Who doesn't remember Victoria at .99 cents just a few weeks after release?

But, seriously if anyone ever wonders why I call it a kids game or childs toy just play Brazil. I was able to conquer South America, build up an amphibious invasion force, invade up throught the boot of Italy, take over northern Africa and the first to march into Berlin. With Brazil now the saviour of the world lol. While it may have some detailed and complex elements it doesn't take away what a child might want to see happen in a WWII game. Hell, lets build a navy on the Fiji islands and sink the bismark while Johnny Horton sings in the background.

total rubbish

you wouldnt get a Cassus Belli against the Axis and you wouldnt have the manpower as Brazil to do it

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Post #: 46

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/11/2014 7:02:27 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

Having done all this ranting....I'm sure I'll cave at some point in the future and buy it when it goes on sale. I'm a sucker like that.

Even I do that from time to time. I even caved and bought HOI III for $4.99 on Gamersgate I think it were. As I recall though HOI III was a mess at release (Japan invades France or was it Finland I forget) and within weeks it was $3.99. That's the 2nd game they've made that got horrible reviews and went extremely down in price after release. Who doesn't remember Victoria at .99 cents just a few weeks after release?

But, seriously if anyone ever wonders why I call it a kids game or childs toy just play Brazil. I was able to conquer South America, build up an amphibious invasion force, invade up throught the boot of Italy, take over northern Africa and the first to march into Berlin. With Brazil now the saviour of the world lol. While it may have some detailed and complex elements it doesn't take away what a child might want to see happen in a WWII game. Hell, lets build a navy on the Fiji islands and sink the bismark while Johnny Horton sings in the background.

total rubbish

you wouldnt get a Cassus Belli against the Axis and you wouldnt have the manpower as Brazil to do it

+1 on that,I don't think he has ever played HOI3.And it was not $3.99 weeks after release,what bs.

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 9/11/2014 8:41:40 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/12/2014 12:51:16 AM

CarlVon

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Joined: 9/11/2012
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I agree...

Not for kids: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3438050
:-)

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Post #: 48

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/27/2014 12:58:39 AM

geozero

Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M J R

I agree with you there Wodin, CK2, EUIII, EUIV i can play, not expertly, but understand and enjoy them.
Hearts Of Iron II and III i have tried over the years but they give me a head ache.
The new version oh Hearts Of Iron looks like something i might be able to wrap my head around :)

I am sooo looking forward to HOI 4.

I own EVERY Paradox game, and for the HOI franchise literally everything that has come out, except some mods.

HOI 3 is a Pain the @$$. It's so bloated you cannot play more than a few turns... maybe I am getting adult ADD. But it is just not a fun game. Making History 2 is better, but not as in depth.

Watching the videos for HOI 4... I can't wait. It's not about being prettier, though certainly a cleaner GUI and better graphics are always welcome. It's about playability... if you want to be so in depth that it take 3 hours to decide where to invade Poland then it's not for me. I think the developer has done an exemplary job at making the game better, faster, more accessible AND still have depth for the hard core gamers.

Just my 2 cents.

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Post #: 49

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/28/2014 3:47:03 PM

hubin

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After witp and witp ae there is no place in my heart for thinie stiupid para... games or doxes.

Personnaly iam waiting for more Close combat's, steel panthers games like, witp/witpae/wpo, beyond the matrix there is only combat mission.
Main stream games are terrible and geting worse...

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Post #: 50

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/28/2014 4:01:54 PM

geozero

Posts: 1886
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My only beef with Close Combat games is that there has not been much in the way of GUI and graphics updates. You are still watching tiny sprites move (sprites from probably the 1980's era). Replace it with a better graphics representation, a MAP and GAME editor and you will have a winner. But instead they will dish out another "battle" every 18-24 months and take another chunk of your savings. Not going down that road anymore. :)

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Post #: 51

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/29/2014 6:02:52 PM

Goodmongo

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First off East vs. West was being developed by BL Logic. I know because I worked on the team that created EvW. It was being published by PI. I won't go into the reason why it was cancelled but I will say that there are no plans whatsoever of bringing it back using HOI4.

I've played many a Matrix game and many a PDS game. They each have their good and bad points. But playing WitP can take many months to finish and it also basically comes down to the critical battle that determines the fate of the Pacific.

HOI3 had it's share of problems and vanilla was just terrible. But the expansions through TFH has come a long way. I still don't know why plasticpanzers says his subs can't sink ships. CV's in an unmodded game are immune but BB's aren't. And having help a little with BICE I know subs can sink almost anything.

So it really comes down to what you want to do. I have lot's of faith for HOI4 but I can't go there because of restrictions. But I do want to say that the things plasticpanzers ahs posted are not true. Much of what is posted in the forums is reviewed. Just because maybe his desires aren't implemented doesn't mean that others are ignored. After all he may want to do something one way and other users prefer option B. Someone will be disappointed. Doesn't mean both weren't considered.

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Post #: 52

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/30/2014 4:06:24 AM

Hadadad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M J R

If you were referring to the East Vs West game that got cancelled in favor of getting HOI IV out the door i was told by a friend who follows Paradox rather closely that the East Vs West will be released later on down the line as an expansion for HOI IV.
Maybe you will get the game after all.....

Umm I do believe your friend has some misinformation

EvW was being developed by a 3rd party, BL Logic that did Arsenal of Democracy, not PDS which is who is developing HOI4 so there was no overlap of resources for getting one out the door versus the other for development staff.

Edit... Missed the last post by Goodmongo...I have a feeling I know him ;)

Also there are a few mods that can make HOI3 more challenging and immersive.

< Message edited by Hadadad -- 9/30/2014 5:12:16 AM >

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Post #: 53

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/30/2014 8:04:44 AM

Rising-Sun

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Well I wont pay fifty us dollars for that game, but if it really worth it and did some serious change and improvements then I might reconsider. Just so many games aren't worth more than fifty bucks.

For example, here in Matrix, they are greedy as hell. Believe I bought four games and only like two of them, other two sucks!

So before buying something I recommend do some research and maybe they will have a demo for it. Customer reviews and youtube/Wikipedia may help you as well.

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Post #: 54

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/30/2014 9:34:55 PM

geozero

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I think Matrix holds the record on the most expensive games, up there close to $100 bucks.

As for cost... I always use my cost vs. enjoyment factor ratio analysis... it goes like this:

Entertainment is worth approx. $8 per hour (cost of a movie+popcorn, cost of amusement park per hour, etc.) - you can use whatever "factor" you want.

So... a game costing $50 should get you at LEAST 6-7 hours. HOI4 will likely get you closer to 35-50 hours of game time. That's a great bargain.

Hope that helps ease the pain of paying for a solid game.

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Post #: 55

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 9/30/2014 10:22:38 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

I think Matrix holds the record on the most expensive games, up there close to $100 bucks.

Steel Beast Pro Personal Edition dropped in price to $115.

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Post #: 56

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 10/1/2014 4:32:51 AM

gradenko2k

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Relevant to Paradox, Crusader Kings 2 just hit over 1 million copies sold

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?801671-Crusader-Kings-II-Over-1-Million-Copies-Sold

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 57

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 3/5/2016 10:05:12 PM

battlevonwar

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Why are you knocking a company that is worth 200 something Million apparently they did something right. Of course some other company could fill in the fringe of what they left behind. I think that the games are more multiplayer in regards to HOI4 engine. Though HOI3 and Vicky series were just impossible...too large...

It is a game, period. All these are make believe. Reality, never... I enjoy every level of gaming. Though you can destroy a good thing if you're not careful! HOI3 gives me a headache was boring and took away player customization (I didn't try the mods mind you) but everyone loves their own kind of game. I like almost anything that is entertaining to me...

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Post #: 58

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 3/5/2016 10:42:12 PM

Karri

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Much can also be said of the interface improvements that Paradox has brought to strategy games. Compared to some Matrix games where you need to have a whole room full of operational papers to reference what's going on the Paradox games are a godsent.

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Post #: 59

RE: HOI 4 disappointing preview - 3/6/2016 3:25:08 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

HOI4 is on my list.

I for one am sick of games that require a freaking spreadsheet to play.

Wanna spend all your time trying to figure out if that 5-4-5 armored division in concert with the 3-3-3 Inf div one in and one out of supply moving across a river in winter can successfully attack that 2-2-2 Inf div defending who just happens to have a CAS sqdn in support??? Really? Knock yourselves out.

Personally - at age 30 going into the weeds to shake out the details was okay. AT 62 its getting old (and so am I).

I find the direction Paradox is going with HOI4 refreshing. HOI3 is pretty good but the level of detail one must deal with to play it with any hope of success is time consuming, boring and frankly a real pain in the ass!

I believe there is a quote out there that does say "Twiced a child" before we die. So, I can see why you'd want something simple at your late older age.