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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/21/2014 11:12:06 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I had a Physics prof at Rolla but I never whacked him and he never gave me a cookie.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 91
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/21/2014 11:25:20 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Wow!!…all of this cause poor Chaz had a rant!! He may still have won the battle and doesn't know it. If he is the Allies and the transport convoy he sunk was loaded with troops headed somewhere important then it may have been a reasonable exchange. If he is the Japanese…yah ok pout.

On the topic of "wacking" profs I should say that those of us in the gentlemanly faculties saw that as sick and wrong!!

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Post #: 92
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/21/2014 11:38:42 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
But truthfully, in this era, CV battles were a crap shoot at best. Looking at early war outcomes, getting into a CV battle generally meant both sides took a beating. This is based upon the '42 CV battles through Midway. Yes, IJ had the worst, but most unbiased assessments of each battle fought (meaning not Morison generally conclude that a few minutes here, a couple of minutes there and outcomes change dramatically. Those razor thin margins are, I beleive, well modeled in the game.

Point being, most air combat, and particularly naval air combat, had a lot of variable NOT controlled by the commanders. Weather being first, but FOW being right with it. Intel was far from perfect. Because of these two factors alone, coordination was measured in double digit minutes, not seconds like today. I think that, more than anything, is what many [younger] players struggle with. They have never been in a situation where absolute, total control was not possible. Products of the digital age, the whole concept of analog is just foreign.

Anyway, just thoughts of an analogue Neanderthal.


There is a book out in the Osprey Duel series that looks at all the CV battles of 1942. The USN doesn't stack up all that well. Strategically the USN won the day, the battles kept Port Morseby, Guadalcanal, and Midway in Allied hands, so on a strategic level the USN was victorious, but tactically, the USN essentially lost Coral Sea, the Eastern Solomons, and Santa Cruz.

At Coral Sea the US traded one CV sunk and another badly damaged for a small CVL sunk and one CV damaged. Both sides had very heavy air group losses.

The Eastern Solomons was the closet thing to a draw. The IJN lost a CVL they were using for bait in exchange for damage to the Enterprise.

At Santa Cruz the US lost a CV with another damaged badly enough to put it in the yards for a while and the Japanese had one CVL and one CV damaged.

The only time the US had a clear CV victory in 1942 was at Midway where blind luck put the SBDs in the right position at the right moment. Even at that, poor direction on the part of the air group commander from the Enterprise almost left the Akagi unscathed. If it hadn't been for some quick thinking on the part of Commander Best, the Akagi would have been spared.

Luck did play a major role. Better Japanese range, better training, and more experience also gave Japan an edge in those early battles. That had completely flipped by the carrier battles of 1944. The IJN air power was a shadow of what it once was and the US had most of the edges in numbers and quality. Even then the USN didn't manage to close the deal at the Battle of the Philippine Sea. That battle was probably the best example of a defensive battle for the USN. Fighter direction that day was near perfect. The largest carrier force in IJN history was only able to score one bomb hit on the South Dakota in exchange for staggering losses. Still the USN was not able to score much damage to the IJN ships and the carriers got away (except those picked off by subs).

This is a good page for the rundowns of various battles:
http://combinedfleet.com/battles/

quote:


OT: I was having a conversation at a picnic this past weekend with an MIT EE graduate (21 yo wunderkind) and we were talking about programming etc. He was expressing his disdain for any language except C#. When I told him my digital programming start with the 4004 and I was happy with any compiled language he looked at me with a blank look. Pretty sure he had no idea what the 4004 was nor that it was programmed with machine language only initially. Nothing else was available at that time. I wonder what he would have done if I had told him about analogue computers that I programmed?


C#? Really? That's a pretty narrow language to put all your energy into. As far as I know it is only supported by Visual Studio for Windows. It also needs .NET, which I really don't trust. It's gotten better, but a language that is completely dependent on an external library that can be changed at any time to do anything is going to have problems.

I prefer to program for long term reliability. It means I'll be spending less time down the road trying to figure out what I did 5 years ago. Which IMO is a good thing.

The first programming I ever did was machine code on the 6400. I went on to do embedded programming for about 15 years before teaching myself Windows programming. The good thing about programming a higher level programming language/OS is I don't need a lab to get my work done. I can write code at home, which is a good thing because I'm currently working for a company in California and I live in Washington State.

I never worked with the 4004, but I know what it is. I have heard it is still used in street light controllers, but I have never verified that.

Bill

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Post #: 93
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/21/2014 11:49:47 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here is a vampire squid. It preys on the weak.




I just want to add that I'm done with this vampire of a squid!

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Post #: 94
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 1:37:34 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Even at that, poor direction on the part of the air group commander from the Enterprise almost left the Akagi unscathed. If it hadn't been for some quick thinking on the part of Commander Best, the Akagi would have been spared.


Midway was not Hornet air group's finest hour. They contributed next to nothing during the battle. Waldron was the only one to make contact, and he abandoned the others to do it.

Ed


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Post #: 95
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 2:02:51 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here is a vampire squid. It preys on the weak.




I just want to add that I'm done with this vampire of a squid!


But he's not done with you.

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Post #: 96
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 2:39:07 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		By the way, I had to do a lot to cut that down to 500kb. That thing is beautifully awesome. I can email the larger version I have for you to enjoy.

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Post #: 97
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 2:43:17 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Also, though he's called a Vampire Squid, he's really not a squid at all, having eight arms and no tentacles. He's also not an Octopus, though he has eight arms. They've given him his own Order, of which he's the only extant member.

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Post #: 98
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 3:08:55 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Even at that, poor direction on the part of the air group commander from the Enterprise almost left the Akagi unscathed. If it hadn't been for some quick thinking on the part of Commander Best, the Akagi would have been spared.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy
Midway was not Hornet air group's finest hour. They contributed next to nothing during the battle. Waldron was the only one to make contact, and he abandoned the others to do it.

Ed



What would have happened if the air group commander had been Waldron rather than Stanhope Ring? The Hornet air group may have been the heroes who drew first blood.

Bill

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Post #: 99
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 4:07:43 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		All the war stories you've ever read or will ever read tell the same truth. Individuals matter. Without characters who inspire all within earshot or eyeshot, everybody can collectively turn into a mass of jelly. It doesn't matter what the rank of the individual is who helps the unit snatch victory from otherwise certain defeat, just that there is that one and everyone can cohere on that. Routing units achieve no glory, it takes everyone together to succeed. The officer who can impress upon the soldier the idea of leadership so when the situation arises when everything counts, the soldier doesn't need the officer to be standing next to him to know what he's supposed to do and do it, but furthermore knows what the others around him need to do and can see that they do it, that officer is made of gold. One of his methods will be to do what is required of every soldier in full view of them, under fire. Very hazardous, but you only need do it once and you will have spawned others who will do it later.

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Post #: 100
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 7:39:38 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Well I am not sure if too late to post, I remember seeing those big ol' 8" floppy drives along with disks. Thank god we don't use them anymore lol.

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Post #: 101
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 7:40:41 AM   
Treetop64


Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

Just lost a whole carrier group because they'd rather bomb transports than an enemy carrier group. Which they knew was there.

This is retarded.

I'm done.


I think he's on his way to play World of Tanks now. Judging by the character of his posts here, he'll fit in just fine there...

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Post #: 102
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 8:14:02 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Well I am not sure if too late to post, I remember seeing those big ol' 8" floppy drives along with disks. Thank god we don't use them anymore lol.


I'm a bit younger than some of the computer people here. I graduated college in the late 80s. However, my first project out of college was working on a monstrosity originally developed in the late 70s for the 757 and 767 program at Boeing. My boss had designed it before getting promoted.

It was a box that went into a 19 inch rack and had about 20 cards in it that were 20 inches X 20 inches. The older cards were all wire wrapped, though the newer production cards were printed circuit. Each card had a Z-80 processor and 64KB of RAM.

Everything was written in assembly and the 7 or 8 programmers who had worked on it before I did were all EEs, not programmers. They had little concept of modules. The printout of the main module was as thick as a phone book. We had to edit on the mainframe, then download the source to a microcontroller development system with 8 inch floppies, assemble the code, then down load it to a PROM burner and burn a PROM before we could test any changes. I took a book to the lab with me when I was coding. I got a lot of reading done.

That system could handle 16 data buses on the airplane. It was used for simulation testing of the various avionics boxes developed for the planes.

For the 777 I was tasked with writing the code for the replacement. That unit ran on an early 68040 processor before Apple started using them. We had a great hardware debugging guy who found a slew of bugs in the processor and reported them to Motorola. He probably made the Macintosh more reliable. I was able to increase the bus count to 80 running full blast. More than would ever be needed in the real world. That was some of the tightest code I ever wrote.

Bill

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Post #: 103
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 9:01:32 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

While I agree that some of the whining comes from lack of knowledge of how the game works or lack of preparation, there are genuine situations, and quite a lot of them, where luck plays a major role. And it can be very easily checked by simply replaying the turn. I did my share of it with my opponent who was also interested in how stuff could play out with a different dice roll and in a few different scenarios - carrier strike, SAG battle etc. - the results varied from catastrophical to really good ones depending on a dice roll.

And I don't agree that you can plan for everything. Despite your best skills there are always factors you have absolutely no control over. Weather is just one example - absolutely no control over it and no way to plan or prepare for it because the forecasts are not a reliable tool to predict it. And just this one factor can lead to a MAJOR difference in results, for example a carrier battle or a surface action depending if you get nice weather or a thunderstorm in the target hex or hexes. And yes, it's just a matter of how lucky you are with the roll despite everything else you did.

I can name a few other factors but I believe you get my point. Yes, this kind of randomness in some factors is pretty realistic and true to life and most of us have learned to accept them. However, some players are used to something very different and to games, even pretty realistic ones, where the battle outcome just can't vary so much depending on just one factor. Many games, even the more complex or realistic ones, let you predict your chances very well, with only slight variation of the final result. Of course, you might argue that this is more similar to chess than real war but some players react very badly when this kind of control is taken away from them.

I'll say again, yes, WITP has got most of these random things right and yes, stuff you can't control like weather could play a major role in a sea battle and shape history and should do the same in game. The problems start when you realize that if you moved that one squadron somewhere on the West coast or in Japan, then that carrier battle could've been just as easily as it has been lost. And like I said, some other wargames have randomness confined to a much bigger degree and you can predict the results of your actions MUCH better without the wild disparity of results based on a random dice roll.

And some players react histerically to that and have a really hard time accepting it in Witp. Then again, this game is just not for everyone and you need to learn to accept it as it is.



quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Point being, most air combat, and particularly naval air combat, had a lot of variable NOT controlled by the commanders. Weather being first, but FOW being right with it. Intel was far from perfect. Because of these two factors alone, coordination was measured in double digit minutes, not seconds like today. I think that, more than anything, is what many [younger] players struggle with. They have never been in a situation where absolute, total control was not possible. Products of the digital age, the whole concept of analog is just foreign.

Anyway, just thoughts of an analogue Neanderthal.



Reread our discussion and just want to note that in general I agree with you anyway.

PaxMondo actually made the comment that got me thinking.

Most kids nowerdays are used to a world where collecting data and predicting events is simply a matter of using the touchscreen of the nearest available handset. For many it is difficult to imagine a world where the main difficulty was not to pick the correct information out of an abundance of data available, but to be able to access even a fraction of that data in the first place.

The (naval) battles of WWII were shaped by individuals interpreting those - in most cases insufficient - data fragments, in the course of events before a battle, as well as during engagements. Few had the capabilities to account for what important bits of information they could use to their advantage while remaining aware of what might still be hidden behind curtain of FOW, and based on this knowledge making the right decisions. Those were the artists who shaped the course of a battle.

Good discussion gents, also in the parallel thread created by Lecivius.

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Post #: 104
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 10:55:54 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		A lot of interesting stuffs here, too bad that player couldn't handle this game, may later he will try again harder. All I have to say is read the manual carefully and a lot of tips on this forum.

Maybe some players doesn't have patient to play this game.

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Post #: 105
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 11:20:36 AM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
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From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

My first computer. And, a pretty damn good one at that.





I remember in High School in 1975 Brother James (I went to Catholic school) standing in front of the room saying this is the last time I will ever teach this and started with the slide rule lessons.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 106
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 1:16:12 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


I never worked with the 4004, but I know what it is. I have heard it is still used in street light controllers, but I have never verified that.


Bill,

So many legends and myths about the chip ... I did a little googling and came up with a ton of contradictions.

I wasn't in that industry, I was only a hobbyist, so my knowledge is not complete. My memory though is that while the 4004 did get a number of commercial uses, it was rapidly replaced by the 4040 in 4 bit applications and by the 8008 and 8080 series for 8 bit (and eventually the revolutionary Z80). 4004 family, while a breakthrough, had a number of severe limitations not that least of which was its tiny memory addressing capability. It was something like 512 bits of memory address ... even in its native machine code, that is a very small program. My first breadboard with the 4004 and nixie tube display, I remember it took me all afternoon the first time to load in my first program. toggle switches to do it and I kept having to start over. Messed up one step and all you could do was clear memory and start over. Of course, the program was to calculate pi to max digits .. I think it was 8 digits ... way cool.

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Pax

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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 2:29:55 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
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From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

I think he's on his way to play World of Tanks now. Judging by the character of his posts here, he'll fit in just fine there...



Belive me, you need far more calmness to play WoT regulary, then a lost carrier battle in WitPAE needs.

And yes, i know this first hand...

(in reply to Treetop64)
Post #: 108
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 4:34:32 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I worked (for just a year) for the North American distributor of Ving locks. They were door locks used in the hospitality industry. There were two types, one most people are familiar with which scan a card the same way you swipe your credit card in a reader. The other was mechanical and involved these plastic punchcards, you pushed the card into the lock and pins would go through the holes punched in the card. This is the same technology that Joseph Marie Jacquard invented in 1801 to program looms with. Here's a pic of the loom, you can see the cards strung above.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 10/22/2014 11:30:24 PM >

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Post #: 109
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 4:35:30 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Here's a close up of the cards.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 110
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 4:36:27 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Here's a portrait of Jacquard made with this loom.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 111
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 4:37:47 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Amazing. An important precursor to the electronic computer. Today's young people would understand their world better if they took an interest in history.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 112
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 9:22:49 PM   
Treetop64


Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Amazing. An important precursor to the electronic computer. Today's young people would understand their world better if they took an interest in history.


Pfft. Who the #^@& cares about times without smart phones and internet...

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Post #: 113
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 9:34:32 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I worked (for just a year) for the North American distributor of Ving locks. The were door locks used in the hospitality industry. There were two types, one most people are familiar with which scan a card the same way you swipe your credit card in a reader. The other was mechanical and involved these plastic punchcards, you pushed the card into the lock and pins would go through the holes punched in the card. This is the same technology that Joseph Marie Jacquard invented in 1801 to program looms with. Here's a pic of the loom, you can see the cards strung above.



Interesting. It seems a bit unwieldy having to carry a great big loom to get into your hotel room though.

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Post #: 114
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 10:32:23 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I worked (for just a year) for the North American distributor of Ving locks. The were door locks used in the hospitality industry. There were two types, one most people are familiar with which scan a card the same way you swipe your credit card in a reader. The other was mechanical and involved these plastic punchcards, you pushed the card into the lock and pins would go through the holes punched in the card. This is the same technology that Joseph Marie Jacquard invented in 1801 to program looms with. Here's a pic of the loom, you can see the cards strung above.



Interesting. It seems a bit unwieldy having to carry a great big loom to get into your hotel room though.


Would you please just go away.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 115
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 10:35:34 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Here's pics of those Ving lock keys




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 116
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/22/2014 11:55:31 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		yeah, I remember using them. I think. Old mind with a not so good memory.....GP

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(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 117
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/23/2014 1:32:28 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		geoff...don't forget. we got a match coming.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 118
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/23/2014 1:51:42 AM   
drw61


Posts: 894
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		Reminded me of one of my favorite shows James Burke's Connections
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itd-4lMoXgI


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a portrait of Jacquard made with this loom.





(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 119
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. - 10/23/2014 1:59:58 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: drw61

Reminded me of one of my favorite shows James Burke's Connections
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itd-4lMoXgI



I was thinking the same thing. James Burke is great. If more history teachers were like him, history would be a popular subject in school.

Bill

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Post #: 120
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