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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> RE: Paratrooper Question

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RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/14/2014 11:39:43 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EHansen

Cdo/Para Engineer has a load cost of 10. Air transport of troops is limited to a load cost of 9 or less.

Not quite. Manual (p170) states "non-squad and non-engineer type devices" 7.2.4.2. So engineers are air transportable.

Duh, there it is, 7.2.4.1 Dropping Troops only mentions non-squad devices, so engineers aren't droppable. Answered my own question. I guess you actually have to READ the manual.

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(in reply to EHansen)

Post #: 31

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/14/2014 11:44:53 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zulurider

Here's the unit

So, did you pick up what I was saying earlier. Engineer units for whatever reason won't para drop. WAD.

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Post #: 32

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/14/2014 11:55:23 PM

msieving1

Posts: 526
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
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Non-squad devices with a load cost greater than 7 cannot be airdropped. That includes engineers. The Cdo/Para Engineer device has a load cost of 10.

Non-squad and non-engineer device with load cost of 9 or less, and squad and engineer type devices of any load cost can be air transported from one friendly airbase to another.

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(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 33

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/14/2014 11:58:43 PM

msieving1

Posts: 526
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So, did you pick up what I was saying earlier. Engineer units for whatever reason won't para drop. WAD.

Engineer devices won't air drop because the load cost is too high. If you want to change that, open the editor and change the load cost of the engineer device to 7.

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(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 34

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 12:00:45 AM

wdolson

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From: Near Portland, OR
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I'd have to look, but the code for limits on device size for air transport and paradrop might be different. If so, this is a bug.

I know there were some tweaking of these limits at some point in development. I don't remember what limits we settled on though.

There may be a higher limit for paradrop assuming some of the devices are going to be delivered by glider and those gliders are not available for air transport.

Bill

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(in reply to EHansen)

Post #: 35

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 12:09:08 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I'd have to look, but the code for limits on device size for air transport and paradrop might be different. If so, this is a bug.

I know there were some tweaking of these limits at some point in development. I don't remember what limits we settled on though.

There may be a higher limit for paradrop assuming some of the devices are going to be delivered by glider and those gliders are not available for air transport.

Bill

Actually its the opposite. Limits are lower for paradrop. Load cost limit is 7 for drops and 9 for air transport. Engineers are not droppable if they're over the limit (and it looks like they all are) because they're defined as Engr not Squad in the database.

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Post #: 36

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 12:12:52 AM

zulurider

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Joined: 10/1/2014
From: New Jersey
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Yes I took the dot base, and no airfield. Did not realize once you took the base, the paras would not drop there anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You dropped on an enemy dot base and then took it. Now more units cannot be air transported there, to a friendly base, because there is no runway? Or are you using floats? I don't think so since you mention Dakotas.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 37

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 12:16:43 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So, did you pick up what I was saying earlier. Engineer units for whatever reason won't para drop. WAD.

Engineer devices won't air drop because the load cost is too high. If you want to change that, open the editor and change the load cost of the engineer device to 7.

No, I don't necessarily want them to drop, but I'm curious as to why they don't, as they're essentially infantry. Of course with some pretty neat toys.

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Post #: 38

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 12:21:08 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zulurider

Yes I took the dot base, and no airfield. Did not realize once you took the base, the paras would not drop there anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You dropped on an enemy dot base and then took it. Now more units cannot be air transported there, to a friendly base, because there is no runway? Or are you using floats? I don't think so since you mention Dakotas.

Engineers won't drop anyway if their load cost is over 7, and it looks like they all are.

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(in reply to zulurider)

Post #: 39

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 1:32:24 AM

zulurider

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: zulurider

Here's the unit

So, did you pick up what I was saying earlier. Engineer units for whatever reason won't para drop. WAD.

I get it. Don't understand it, but I get it.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 40

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 1:48:00 AM

wdolson

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The load cost was primarily used for loading on ships and the load cost determines how much space on the ship that take up. Engineers have a lot of equipment to take on board. The limits on what planes will carry is due to the bulkiness of most large load cost devices (like guns or trucks), but doesn't really apply to something like engineers which can stow the load in many small pieces instead of one bulky one.

It does bring up the idea that the load cost limit for air transport should be different for squad type devices. I wasn't directly involved in the design of air transport or air drops, so I am not sure if there is some other kind of thinking there.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to zulurider)

Post #: 41

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 4:17:11 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zulurider

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: zulurider

Here's the unit

So, did you pick up what I was saying earlier. Engineer units for whatever reason won't para drop. WAD.

I get it. Don't understand it, but I get it.

Eventually we get the correct info. Not flying from Rangoon, not a Chindit unit, flying to an inland dot base etc. This game is complex and lack of precision will result in unsatisfactory answers. Difficult enough for experienced players to fully state all the relevant parameters of a problem, for newbies almost impossible, hence why screenshots are always preferred.

Lowpe nailed it on the head in post #28. There is no bug here whatsoever, it is WAD. Troops can only be flown to another friendly base if both the departure and receiving bases have an airfield. The only exception being when coastal hexes are involved where planes equipped with floats are employed. The logic is not that difficult to understand when one takes into account the nature of the legacy code.

It is possible to drop supplies out in the countryside. The code clearly allows this. But a base is not a countryside hex. As far as the code is concerned, it is a binary situation with different parameters applying to base/non base hex. Hence between bases it is 50% of maximum range of aircraft, but to a non base it is 100% of normal range. This usually means that you can fly supplies further if the destination is a base than if it is a non base destination. Logic being that the plane lands and can be refuelled at the destination. That means there must be an airfield at the destination.

The air transport code in AE is SAIEW. It would have been too much work to alter the code to recognise that sometimes a base should be treated as if it were countryside and other times it is a base. As always, what looks to the layman as a simple coding task, is in reality always quite complex when dealing with old legacy code. The most minor change requires extensive testing to confirm that bugs and exploits are not introduced.

Alfred

(in reply to zulurider)

Post #: 42

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 4:14:31 PM

zulurider

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Thanks Bill for questioning whether the airborne load costs should have been handled differently. Sounds like they should have. But I also recognize that the airborne aspect of the Pacific War was minimal when compared to the amphibious, so it's understandable.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 43

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/15/2014 4:20:52 PM

zulurider

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Joined: 10/1/2014
From: New Jersey
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Thanks Alfred. Don't really care about coding and the complexities therein, just want to play the game.

But I appreciate the fact that when asking a question, I really need to include all of the game details, and that includes a screenshot if applicable. After all, I'm asking about a game ---- not reality! I really appreciate the patience shown here by all.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 44

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/18/2014 3:29:56 PM

crsutton

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It has always been the case that para engineers do not drop or air transport (at least with the Allies) This has been the case from day one leaving a small fragment behind with each drop. You then have to figure a way to get that fragment back to the parent unit where it will not drop the next time. Generally I just give up moving the fragment at all and use the para unit without it throughout the game. I moaned about this five years ago. It is a nuisance but a small one. It would be nice to see a correction but I won't fret it. Funny but I believe that the Allies actually get an artillery unit that can be air dropped late in the game. Possibly even a tank unit. (can't recall) but you will never drop these engineers. I can't recall if the larger C-46 can eventually drop them.

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(in reply to zulurider)

Post #: 45

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/18/2014 5:54:09 PM

zulurider

Posts: 40
Joined: 10/1/2014
From: New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

It has always been the case that para engineers do not drop or air transport (at least with the Allies) This has been the case from day one leaving a small fragment behind with each drop. You then have to figure a way to get that fragment back to the parent unit where it will not drop the next time. Generally I just give up moving the fragment at all and use the para unit without it throughout the game. I moaned about this five years ago. It is a nuisance but a small one. It would be nice to see a correction but I won't fret it. Funny but I believe that the Allies actually get an artillery unit that can be air dropped late in the game. Possibly even a tank unit. (can't recall) but you will never drop these engineers. I can't recall if the larger C-46 can eventually drop them.

I agree, it's a small point. But this thread has impressed me about how even such a small part of the game can receive such attention and feedback. Love WITP AE!

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 46

RE: Paratrooper Question - 11/19/2014 3:06:42 PM

Lowpe