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AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 11:06:48 AM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline 		How does one get airframe fatigue driven down.

For pilots - it seems easy - stand them down in a place not getting attacked.

Planes - I stand them down at a large base with surplus aviation support and unless the plane is damaged not much seems to happen. For carrier aircraft moving them to a base when anchored (and then back to the carrier) seems to do the trick after a day or two; land based bombers not so much. I've even tried loading them on a ship and back to port with limited success.
Post #: 1
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 11:17:06 AM   
Yakface


Posts: 846
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Wegman

I followed airframe fatigue for a unit over the course of a couple of weeks. What I saw was pretty much as you describe. It does gradually creep down if you stand unit down, but big figures are reduced most effectively by forcing the plane to repair (swap to different model then back/load on transport etc).

Just as a side point - in general plane fatigue does not seem to be much of an issue. 10 to 20 points don't seem to result in additional write offs. It's only when it gets into the 50-100 range that I worry.

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 2
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 12:39:16 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		airframe fatigue recovery is a big problem for late-war Allied 4EBs. Airframes w/ svc-rating of 4 or 5 just don't get any love, they don't get back to the flight-line. B-29s based at 7(4) airbases w/ sufficient air-support aren't returned from damaged/maintenance status, they take ages to repair. IME, a total stand-down of the airgroup (Training=0) doesn't help, the dam/maint airframes are stuck in sticky goo.

Perhaps the game-engine gives priority to active air-groups, but my stood-down groups aren't able to repair their damaged planes.

(in reply to Yakface)
Post #: 3
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 1:13:53 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Rest will get the large numbers down fairly fast. Once you reach a certain point it seems to get slower. But as said, I don't think twice about flying air frames with wear into the 20's or 30's.




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Post #: 4
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 2:19:43 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		This seems pretty reasonable to me.

After all, metal fatigue isn't something that "recovers" with rest like human fatigue.

Worn out brakes and tires don't recover with rest either.

Once you stress a component it remains stressed until replaced.

One would think however, that a week of standing down would allow for sufficient replacement of stressed components to se a reduction in fatigue.

I would also think there are some stressed parts that simply can't be replaced in the field.

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(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 5
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 3:21:20 PM   
RogerJNeilson


Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline 		I tend to teat them as pretty expendible, have never worried about airframe fatigue. Too busy killing the enemy!

Now in August 1944, too late to start worrying now.

Roger

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(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 5:02:26 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

How does one get airframe fatigue driven down.

For pilots - it seems easy - stand them down in a place not getting attacked.

Planes - I stand them down at a large base with surplus aviation support and unless the plane is damaged not much seems to happen. For carrier aircraft moving them to a base when anchored (and then back to the carrier) seems to do the trick after a day or two; land based bombers not so much. I've even tried loading them on a ship and back to port with limited success.


I've looked at this a bit in my game. For the units I looked at (mostly fighters), the magic number was 70. When I stood the group down, all air frames over 70 fatigue went into maintenance. All under did not.

One other thing I found is if you have pdu on, you can "upgrade" the unit to something else, then "upgrade" it back to what it was. You need to have sufficient air frames in your replacement pool (or enough time for the origional air frames to make it too the pool)
I thought about this a bit, and I don't think it is gamey. I consider it depot level repair for my air frames. It costs supply, it has to be done at a "large" "well supplied" base (as defined by the requirements to upgrade air frames), you need to have replacement air frames in pool, and the new air frames arrive in maintenance mode and take several days to be flight worthy. I don't know why, but for some reason I feel the need to justify this to myself.

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 7
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 6:49:31 PM   
bush

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		Does having extra airframes assigned to the squadron, help keep the fatigue lower for a longer period of time? This seems to work with overstocking the pilot pool in a given unit.

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 8
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 7:17:29 PM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Does having extra airframes assigned to the squadron, help keep the fatigue lower for a longer period of time? This seems to work with overstocking the pilot pool in a given unit.


Not really.
An extra airframe(s) will become active when another goes down for repairs or maintenance. The airframe will go into repairs or maintenance based on its damage and/or fatigue. As far as I know, this is independant of having reserve air frames. The reserve airframe will just take its place, and the origional will go to reserve once it is repaired (assuming a full squadron - else it goes to the squadron).

(in reply to bush)
Post #: 9
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 8:03:15 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		B-29s?
http://www.usmm.org/felknorivory.html

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 10
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/8/2015 10:38:10 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Does having extra airframes assigned to the squadron, help keep the fatigue lower for a longer period of time? This seems to work with overstocking the pilot pool in a given unit.


Not really.
An extra airframe(s) will become active when another goes down for repairs or maintenance. The airframe will go into repairs or maintenance based on its damage and/or fatigue. As far as I know, this is independant of having reserve air frames. The reserve airframe will just take its place, and the origional will go to reserve once it is repaired (assuming a full squadron - else it goes to the squadron).


Read my post in this 2013 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3371056&mpage=1&key=airframe%2Cfatigue�

Alfred

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 11
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/9/2015 3:38:53 AM   
tiemanjw

 

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Does having extra airframes assigned to the squadron, help keep the fatigue lower for a longer period of time? This seems to work with overstocking the pilot pool in a given unit.


Not really.
An extra airframe(s) will become active when another goes down for repairs or maintenance. The airframe will go into repairs or maintenance based on its damage and/or fatigue. As far as I know, this is independant of having reserve air frames. The reserve airframe will just take its place, and the origional will go to reserve once it is repaired (assuming a full squadron - else it goes to the squadron).


Read my post in this 2013 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3371056&mpage=1&key=airframe%2Cfatigue�

Alfred


cool... thanks.

Quick clarification on point 4:
quote:


4. If the squadron has spare airframes in "reserve", damaged planes are automatically rotated out to be repaired and are automatically replaced by airframes from the reserve.


I think what you are saying here is that if a airframe is pulled out of circulation for maintenance, a reserve airframe will take its place... and not that the reserve airframes presence makes the chance of repair more likely. Is that correct?


Also, to clarify my previous post, all of the fighters I checked (with the magic number of 70) was when I stood them down... and they all had a SR of 1 (navy and USMC F4Fs and F6Fs). This seems like it might be relevant in light of Alfred's information.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 12
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/10/2015 7:53:32 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		In DaBabes A, B-29 with its 70 durability and service rating of 5, is the most maintenance-hungry aircraft in the whole war. Plan accordingly.

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 13
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/10/2015 9:37:00 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		If you're the US, use them for training in '42 and '43, after that you will have plenty of replacements. UK and Commonwealth not so much. Pilot fatigue will abate if they are training with a range of zero and a low altitude like 5k. They should recover nicely even if you're training 100% but follow the preceding advice.

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 14
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/11/2015 1:25:25 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
In DaBabes A, B-29 with its 70 durability and service rating of 5, is the most maintenance-hungry aircraft in the whole war. Plan accordingly.

You're right, Yaab - one's B-29 fleet must be husbanded carefully. Esp w/ Alfred's note that an airframes SR serves to modify its ability to be maintained.

But what gets up my nose, is the 'Est Delay' when I tag the 'Planes' screen. Consistently, I have B-29s that don't return to the flight-line, despite the fact that on the previous day, their Est Delay was 1. Seems to me that the Est Delay does not take proper account of the airframes' SR.

& given Alfred's (raw maintenance index)/(Service Rating) formula, will increasing my B-29 bases Aviation Support to 5 times the req'ment give me adequate repair capability?

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 15
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/11/2015 1:33:40 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I don't know. Aircraft with max durability 30 /service rating 1 will, theoretically, repair in one day. This makes Wildcat such a great airframe. However, it is not a given. Once enough damage accumulates, the repairs take longer. I have seen Oscars with enough air support repair in 2 days, instead of 1 day. I do not know where the damage threshold is. The longest repair times I have seen were 7 days for B-17. Never seen 8,9 or 10 days.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 16
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/11/2015 1:56:10 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		When you guys refer to enough support I'm presuming you mean 1 support/plane .. What i have found to drastically reduce ops losses and airframe fatigue is 1 support/engine . IE 4 support for a B29 ., 2 for a C-47 etc. This is ofc modified by the service rating, but do try huge AV levels e.g 600+/size 9 base and I hope you'll find they fly a lot more often and more safely.

This is anecdotal but over 2-3 full PBEM games its becoming obvious to me more AV is never 'wasted'.

TTFN

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Post #: 17
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/13/2015 4:36:46 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Does having extra airframes assigned to the squadron, help keep the fatigue lower for a longer period of time? This seems to work with overstocking the pilot pool in a given unit.


Not really.
An extra airframe(s) will become active when another goes down for repairs or maintenance. The airframe will go into repairs or maintenance based on its damage and/or fatigue. As far as I know, this is independant of having reserve air frames. The reserve airframe will just take its place, and the origional will go to reserve once it is repaired (assuming a full squadron - else it goes to the squadron).


Read my post in this 2013 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3371056&mpage=1&key=airframe%2Cfatigue�

Alfred


cool... thanks.

Quick clarification on point 4:
quote:


4. If the squadron has spare airframes in "reserve", damaged planes are automatically rotated out to be repaired and are automatically replaced by airframes from the reserve.


I think what you are saying here is that if a airframe is pulled out of circulation for maintenance, a reserve airframe will take its place... and not that the reserve airframes presence makes the chance of repair more likely. Is that correct?


Also, to clarify my previous post, all of the fighters I checked (with the magic number of 70) was when I stood them down... and they all had a SR of 1 (navy and USMC F4Fs and F6Fs). This seems like it might be relevant in light of Alfred's information.



tiemanj,

Yes, that is the correct interpretation of point 4. Spare airframes is like spare pilots; the code automatically rotates them in and out in an attempt to maintain the availability at the TOE level. The main difference being that pilots reduce fatigue much, much faster than metal fatigue is removed from the airframes.

Alfred

(in reply to tiemanjw)
Post #: 18
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/13/2015 4:59:29 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
In DaBabes A, B-29 with its 70 durability and service rating of 5, is the most maintenance-hungry aircraft in the whole war. Plan accordingly.

You're right, Yaab - one's B-29 fleet must be husbanded carefully. Esp w/ Alfred's note that an airframes SR serves to modify its ability to be maintained.

But what gets up my nose, is the 'Est Delay' when I tag the 'Planes' screen. Consistently, I have B-29s that don't return to the flight-line, despite the fact that on the previous day, their Est Delay was 1. Seems to me that the Est Delay does not take proper account of the airframes' SR.

& given Alfred's (raw maintenance index)/(Service Rating) formula, will increasing my B-29 bases Aviation Support to 5 times the req'ment give me adequate repair capability?


Aircraft durability is not a relevant consideration for repairs/maintenance.

The "est delay" is exactly that; an estimate. The chance of repairs actually occurring is dependent on


  • the damage level to the airfield's service facility
  • the amount of aviation support (on a 1:1 Av Sup to #of airframes basis)
  • adequate supplies at the base


It can only be an estimate as the program does not know in advance how many "ready" av sup devices will be available subsequently, nor whether any additional airfield service damage will be sustained, nor the level of supplies left after combat, nor how many new planes will become damaged that day and therefore place additional demands.

Alfred

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 19
RE: AIRFRAME FATIGUE - 1/13/2015 6:44:21 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

When you guys refer to enough support I'm presuming you mean 1 support/plane .. What i have found to drastically reduce ops losses and airframe fatigue is 1 support/engine . IE 4 support for a B29 ., 2 for a C-47 etc. This is ofc modified by the service rating, but do try huge AV levels e.g 600+/size 9 base and I hope you'll find they fly a lot more often and more safely.

This is anecdotal but over 2-3 full PBEM games its becoming obvious to me more AV is never 'wasted'.

TTFN


+1....I haven't taken a scientific approach to quantifying it, but my experience bears this out as well.

Port Morseby, level 9 airfield with 338 planes and 700+ AV has 300 ready planes and 38 in repair/maintenance with every squadron, but two running daily ops.

Extra AV support and aircraft maintenance engineers never seems to be wasted.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 20
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