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Fire: the little brother of flooding and system damage

 
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Fire: the little brother of flooding and system damage - 3/3/2003 9:38:35 PM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Are ships ever abandoned ( i.e. counted as "sunk" ) because of a high fire level? Right now I don't see fire as much of a threat. If I had to choose which type of damage my ships took (system, flooding, or fire) fire would win hands down. System damaeg takes forever to repair, as it shood, and flooding can sink you if you are not near a port. What does fire do? It seems to add a little system damage from turn to turn. That's fine but I would think that if the level gets high enough there would be a call to abandon ship. I remember in other GG games that fire was a very serious threat. Even having ANY level of fire caused a chance of an explosion each turn until it was extinguished or the ship was abandoned.

Does anyone else feel like fire is not equal to the other two types of damage?

Yamamoto
Post #: 1
Re: Fire: the little brother of flooding and system damage - 3/3/2003 9:45:13 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]I remember in other GG games that fire was a very serious threat. Even having ANY level of fire caused a chance of an explosion each turn until it was extinguished or the ship was abandoned.
[/B][/QUOTE]

That's a good idea. I would suggest that fire levels over 50% should trigger this chance.

Fire prevents FLT damage from being repaired. i.e.: fire repairs first, then flt.
Flt damage leads to an increase in sys damage per phase. In surface coombat ships on fire are more likely to be targeted with a higher hit percentage.

Other than that fire dosn't seem to have any effect, even on fighting ability (speed) or on flight ops (if a CV).

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Post #: 2
Re: Re: Fire: the little brother of flooding and system... - 3/3/2003 10:41:59 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veer
[B]That's a good idea. I would suggest that fire levels over 50% should trigger this chance.

Fire prevents FLT damage from being repaired. i.e.: fire repairs first, then flt.
Flt damage leads to an increase in sys damage per phase. In surface coombat ships on fire are more likely to be targeted with a higher hit percentage.

Other than that fire dosn't seem to have any effect, even on fighting ability (speed) or on flight ops (if a CV). [/B][/QUOTE]Fire can combine with Flt Damage to close CV flight ops.

As to speed, even a burning ship can still make flank speed.

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Post #: 3
- 3/3/2003 11:09:43 PM   
Veer


Posts: 2231
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Excuse me
Status: offline 		I thought only SYS and FLT closed flight OPs - fire has any effect?

Ships going at flank speed make it much harder to fight the fire - usually the fire will get worse. I don't think that is modelled in the game.

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Post #: 4
- 3/3/2003 11:11:46 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I don't really have an opinion on the whole "fire damage debate". But from a factual standpoint...

"As to speed, even a burning ship can still make flank speed."

Actually, didn't ships (and still do) REDUCE speed (if not entirely if the situation premitted) if there were fires? If you're making 20kts with a fire, you've now got 20kts of wind litterally fanning (and spreading) the flames. Actually, I suppose it matters which direction you head, maybe you'd want to have the wind at your back and match it's speed in order to hopefully negate as much of the affect as possible?

(* shrug *)

One of you ex-Navy guys tho could chime in here and either corroberrate or tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about (*grin*).

-F-

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Post #: 5
- 3/4/2003 5:51:19 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		There is currently no provision for out of control fires in the game. All fire levels increment downward (in varying amounts) after damage is accessed with some SYS and FLT penalties applied regardless of intensity level.

I have submitted some thoughts and preposals on making fire a more dynamic and dangerous element in ship damage for WitP

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28425

I dont see the need for an "abandonment check" as the player is given an option to 'scuttle' if SYS and FLT damage reach critical levels.

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 6
- 3/4/2003 5:58:08 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feinder
[B]I don't really have an opinion on the whole "fire damage debate". But from a factual standpoint...

"As to speed, even a burning ship can still make flank speed."

Actually, didn't ships (and still do) REDUCE speed (if not entirely if the situation premitted) if there were fires? If you're making 20kts with a fire, you've now got 20kts of wind litterally fanning (and spreading) the flames. Actually, I suppose it matters which direction you head, maybe you'd want to have the wind at your back and match it's speed in order to hopefully negate as much of the affect as possible?

(* shrug *)

One of you ex-Navy guys tho could chime in here and either corroberrate or tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about (*grin*).

-F- [/B][/QUOTE]

It depended on the situation. True, unless the hull or propulsion units were damaged or the boiler intakes damaged, a ship could maintain speed regardless of fires burning on the upper deck. However such an action could impede said fire fighting efforts by fanning the flames. Fellow warships would also be unable to assist (with fire hoses etc) if at speed as well

However there were incidents where ships maintained speed with good reason. One reason involved the Wasp whose captain kept her at speed and turned into the wind in order to fan thick choking smoke off of the after section to keep the bow and amidships sections somewhat clear of smoke and flame. In another episode carrier Shokaku mantained fairly high speed after suffering 5 x 1000ILB GP bomb hits which wrecked her flight deck and started serious fires in the hanger area in order to maintain formation and keep Nagumo with the TF (transfering the flag was difficult under such battle conditions)

In Shokaku's case her hull and propulsion units were never seriously threatened and she was able to withdrawl at speed. Wasp initially was able to maintain speed but further explosions and the spread of fire and flooding eventually killed her power.

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 7
I thought about this today... - 3/4/2003 12:30:06 PM   
JohnK

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline 		Before seeing this thread.

What strikes me as odd is how long fires burn in the game.

It seems to me either you get the fire out in the context of one UV turn (one day) or you've lost the ship.

So really should the damage be showing fires? Either a fire goes out of control and the ship has to be abandoned, or it simply causes system damage and you never see it displayed the next day.

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 8
- 3/4/2003 8:54:36 PM   
Von_Frag

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feinder
[B]I don't really have an opinion on the whole "fire damage debate". But from a factual standpoint...

"As to speed, even a burning ship can still make flank speed."

Actually, didn't ships (and still do) REDUCE speed (if not entirely if the situation premitted) if there were fires? If you're making 20kts with a fire, you've now got 20kts of wind litterally fanning (and spreading) the flames. Actually, I suppose it matters which direction you head, maybe you'd want to have the wind at your back and match it's speed in order to hopefully negate as much of the affect as possible?

(* shrug *)

One of you ex-Navy guys tho could chime in here and either corroberrate or tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about (*grin*).


-F- [/B][/QUOTE]

IIRC both the Forrestal's and Enterprises captains took them to flank speed to keep the smoke and flames aft of the island and to help the dc parties concentrate on one area. If either ship had lost the island, that would have been the end.

Von Frag

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 9
- 3/4/2003 11:25:56 PM   
Toro


Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline 		One thing fires do in the game (I believe??) is make the ship easier to hit -- the attacker can see/target the ship much more easily.

From my Navy days, the key is getting the wind positioned to keep smoke from rolling along the vessel, and instead getting it to blow off to the side -- keeps things clear for firefighting teams. Speed required would depend on the wind conditions at the the time -- if no wind, gotta make your own....

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 10
- 3/4/2003 11:52:58 PM   
Attack Condor

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 12/27/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		[QUOTE][I] originally posted by JohnK[/I]

[B]It seems to me either you get the fire out in the context of one UV turn (one day) or you've lost the ship.[/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed... although I actually thought "fire damage" was damage caused by a fire - not that the ship is still burning.

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Post #: 11
Re: I thought about this today... - 3/5/2003 12:01:51 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnK
[B]Before seeing this thread.

What strikes me as odd is how long fires burn in the game.

It seems to me either you get the fire out in the context of one UV turn (one day) or you've lost the ship.

So really should the damage be showing fires? Either a fire goes out of control and the ship has to be abandoned, or it simply causes system damage and you never see it displayed the next day. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is a necessary "fudge" due to the game turn lengths, which run in 24 hour increments. The same situation applies for progressive flooding as well. Most progressive flooding situations (but not all) dont usually extend much past 24 hours if at all, but in order for the game to "simulate" this deadly peril the "battle against progressive flooding" by damage control teams has to be fought out on a turn by turn basis, hence due to the 24 hour nature of said turns, it gets stretched out a bit.

The overall "effect" though is still quite historical and UV is the first operational level wargame that really educates (and yeah, frustrates at times) the player on how vital and potentially dangerous this was once a hull gets breached to the ocean. In past games you'd just be left with a static "flood %" based on weapons hit, which forced players to overkill warships to ensure that the damage level reached 100%.

Fire damage can be (and should be IMO) worked in the same vein as fire at sea was almost if not as dangerous a threat as progressive flooding.....particularily for carriers. Wasp, Lexington, Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu were all sunk or scuttled due to uncontrollable fires which caused damage and explosions over an extended period of time. Other warships have also experienced fires that for one reason or another could not be contained and eventually led to abandonment and scuttling.

However with the current code, this aspect is not represented. Fire levels, no matter how high an intensity (standard scale of 1-99, same as Floatation damage) always increment downward and may cause some add'l SYS and FLT damage along the way, but no weapons destruction, explosion or chance for increase nor is there a threshold level where fire levels may pass beyond the ability of DC teams to fight.

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 12
- 3/5/2003 12:06:01 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		A ship with fire in her bunkers (oil tanks) could burn for days before the crew put it out.

I would like to see the effects of fire enhances.

Planes caught on deck refueling.
Magazine explosions
How bout a 1000 pounder near miss putting out the fire ( it happened).
Serious fire should at least knock out all the planes. (They usually pushed them over the side)

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Post #: 13
- 3/5/2003 2:52:34 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		Ask the crews of the Kaga, Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu if fire is a serious issue. Or, ask their ashes at least.

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Post #: 14
- 3/5/2003 3:18:29 AM   
Von_Frag

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		enough said.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Yamamoto)
Post #: 15
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