Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I think he's simply played a different kind of war here. He's moving to contain, separate then squeeze, like a python, rather than a quick viper's strike. (At least after the debacle in Sian in early 42).

Which he targeted, so right away not what I'm talking about.

In not building more big airfields he may be thinking of his supply constraints, and those might dictate some things, the PDU-off might dictate others. To be fair, hitting Chungking is not as easy as in a stock game. I've had CAP here intermittently throughout the game, often including very good airframes that he'd have to overwhelm with numbers. He's done that on occasions, and he probably should have hit the industry, but we do have HRs on strat bombing allowing onl manpower attacks and an increasing scale of bombers for night strikes, (50 for 42 and 100 in 43). I know you're not a fan of HRs but this one will help the Japanese more than me over the course of the game, I'd say.

Not in China.

You're still not getting it. First 2-3 months. You have no good airframes. The Chinese air force is wiped, or in your case runs away. The AVG in stock starts with crap planes, and there is no AF in Asia over level 4. None. You can't upgrade to P-40Es anywhere, you can't fly out and replace. But the P-40E pool starts at zero anyway. Goose egg. And you might want a few at Pearl. And even the mighty AVG starts at 55 EXP and 55 Morale. Did DBB make them magical somehow? And even if you get them in they're three small squadrons. Zeros can certainly give them a run and attrit them. After they're gone (and they withdraw on July 4th, 1942 I think) what have you got? Hurricanes? Big pools there. And a long, long trip in from India.

You've got CAP in central China now because he let you. He had the tools to prevent it. He used them elsewhere.

Even the comparatively poor Chinese AA will do some damage. He loses several planes a day from 15k when bombing Chungking with 100 2E, and gets decent hits on the fields but not as much on the manpower. (This still hurts me, as the AA takes a good bunch of supply).

And he let you have open hexsides. This is the key.

Strat bombing:

manpower strikes allowed during daylight
manpower strikes allowed during night with sliding scale:

25 planes/target in 41
50 planes/target in 42
100 planes/target in 43
200 planes/target in 44
400 planes/target in 45-46.

quote:


In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game.

Calcutta has 500 LI and 520 HI in stock. But only 60 Resources and no Fuel. An Allied player can isolate it industrially pretty easily. If all you want from India is Calcutta, do go. It's a huge waste of effort, shipping, fuel, various types of Japanese points, and time.

Chungking has about 500 points of both industries, and more Resources. It's a lot closer too.

Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

Calcutta supply has to be moved out to be of any use. It doesn't natively help R&D except as a substitute perhaps. And a lot of what it makes is eaten defending itself.

To use your list you'd have to have some different conditions than the DBB game we're playing. These are very good ideas, and other than the strat bombing, similar to how I took China in my two games as Japan. I'll tackle this out of order as some things require explanation first to get to the others.

quote:

6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.

In DBB the Chinese have 37mm AT guns in most big Corps to start as well as two independent units with these guns. It makes a big difference. They won't kill as many tanks as I'd like, but they do damage them, and that ends up making him rotate units and rest others, taking time.

Already addressed this. Stock has internal AT guns too.

quote:

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

Again, heavy brush bad for tanks, good for Chinese. Don't play his game. Go around, or go through on road hexes. Follow up with infantry to mop up and keep supply corridor open.

quote:

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period.

You can if you get there first. Period.

That's one division or one tank division with some arty. That's all. The Chinese can put 500AV in each hex and build a few forts. It often takes a month to blast through each hex with concentrated air power and bombardments, plus rotating units in and out.

Again, first 2-3 months. If they take the whole western starting establishment and put it in the mountains it starves. They must hold Kunming or it's over. It's only three hexes to Tsuyung from there. SL means "costs more supply." It doesn't mean the SL limit is absolute. The Japanese can overstack in the attack and pay the price for a short time. They'll have Kunming at their backs and the Chinese have nothing worthwhile until Mandalay. that's a lot of supply waste if Mandalay even can forward any. It has it's own problems.

quote:

3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.

The Chinese air force never fights in China. It moves to India immediately. There they train and take a rear CAP role. The bombers hunt subs.

So no air force. Gottcha.

The AVG moves into China as opportunity allows.

Already covered. No AVG. Your mention of the P-40K again shows you're not getting the time frame.

If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

quote:

4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.

After the first battle of Sain, Nick did leave both of these alone until he could no longer leave Changsha. That base gets a ton of supply and can rebuild units, supply the areas around it and also support the air infusions of the AVG right in the middle of the country where they can strike any number of areas.

In stock it starts with 22 points of productive industry, and 160/day organic. Whee! A party! It has about 200 points damaged. Gonna repair that? Did DBB make Changsha an industrial powerhouse?

quote:

5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.

Not necessary, as supply moves well from Shanghai into central China. Wastes fuel. Also, if my opponent was doing this I would have sunk those xAKL if Changsha was left untaken.

With what? Your air force ran away. In stock you get a handful of Hudsons, but they can't hit a mountain let alone a ship. If you don't like it fine, but the devs had the AI do it. Big supply closer is always better than big supply farther.

quote:

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines.

Weeks, not months. And moving they have no forts.

Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

If Japan lets you.

quote:

8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.

For all of the above reasons you never will get there in two months. Or four months. Or six months. In SL it takes much longer with good play.

If Japan is fighting whatever China offers it's not good play, no.

Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking.

I strenuously disagree. SL didn't change the basic model. It didn't change device stats. It didn't change leadership or the woeful training and disablement rate of the initial Chinese army. It doesn't give China an air force. It doesn't give them one tank. It makes defending in rough terrain easier. That's it. If Japan insists on ramming itself into rough terrain then, yeah SL is harder. But if Japan doesn't go to India, does strip the M. Garrison of non-AV support units, and does invest in proper air power, it's not a year. Not even close.

Then even it's difficult to close all hex sides.

If you HR removing Chungking's industry it's harder. It's not impossible with the right mix, armor-heavy.

Right now Nick is fighting with a maxed hex between Kweiyang and Chungking, and none of the four Corps there are full of supply (one has none). Only three of the four have forts built. Yet still in two attacks he's gotten negative results costing 300+ disabled infantry squads to about 50 for the Chinese. This is even with air strikes and very experienced Japanese units. One of my units is a zombie with no arty at all even, but I wanted to see how the Chinese 43 squads would do. Seems like they're good!

If I had an air bridge it wouldn't even matter that he takes out the industry at Chungking. I just keep applying more transports as they arrive.

You really need to look at arrival dates and locations and carrying capacity of the available transports in 1942. Replace 500 production points? Not gonna happen. (Not to mention that the monsoon can run Ledo supply to nothing on occasion.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You're still not getting it. First 2-3 months. You have no good airframes. The Chinese air force is wiped, or in your case runs away. The AVG in stock starts with crap planes, and there is no AF in Asia over level 4. None. You can't upgrade to P-40Es anywhere, you can't fly out and replace. But the P-40E pool starts at zero anyway. Goose egg. And you might want a few at Pearl. And even the mighty AVG starts at 55 EXP and 55 Morale. Did DBB make them magical somehow? And even if you get them in they're three small squadrons. Zeros can certainly give them a run and attrit them. After they're gone (and they withdraw on July 4th, 1942 I think) what have you got? Hurricanes? Big pools there. And a long, long trip in from India.

You've got CAP in central China now because he let you. He had the tools to prevent it. He used them elsewhere.

quote:

quote:

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game.

Calcutta has 500 LI and 520 HI in stock. But only 60 Resources and no Fuel. An Allied player can isolate it industrially pretty easily. If all you want from India is Calcutta, do go. It's a huge waste of effort, shipping, fuel, various types of Japanese points, and time.

Chungking has about 500 points of both industries, and more Resources. It's a lot closer too.

quote:


Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

Calcutta supply has to be moved out to be of any use. It doesn't natively help R&D except as a substitute perhaps. And a lot of what it makes is eaten defending itself.

quote:

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

Again, heavy brush bad for tanks, good for Chinese. Don't play his game. Go around, or go through on road hexes. Follow up with infantry to mop up and keep supply corridor open.

quote:

quote:

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period.

You can if you get there first. Period.

quote:


Again, first 2-3 months. If they take the whole western starting establishment and put it in the mountains it starves. They must hold Kunming or it's over. It's only three hexes to Tsuyung from there. SL means "costs more supply." It doesn't mean the SL limit is absolute. The Japanese can overstack in the attack and pay the price for a short time. They'll have Kunming at their backs and the Chinese have nothing worthwhile until Mandalay. that's a lot of supply waste if Mandalay even can forward any. It has it's own problems.

quote:

So no air force. Gottcha.

quote:

Already covered. No AVG. Your mention of the P-40K again shows you're not getting the time frame.

quote:

quote:

If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

quote:

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

quote:

quote:

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines.

Weeks, not months. And moving they have no forts.

quote:

quote:

Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

If Japan lets you.

quote:

quote:

Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking.

I strenuously disagree. SL didn't change the basic model. It didn't change device stats. It didn't change leadership or the woeful training and disablement rate of the initial Chinese army. It doesn't give China an air force. It doesn't give them one tank. It makes defending in rough terrain easier. That's it. If Japan insists on ramming itself into rough terrain then, yeah SL is harder. But if Japan doesn't go to India, does strip the M. Garrison of non-AV support units, and does invest in proper air power, it's not a year. Not even close.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

It's not DBB that allows you to run 150-Hellcat CAPS over central China in mid-1943.

Is DBB/SL the new "you play the AI" sneer?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, let me qualify a bit. Even with supply good Japanese play is going to eventually drive the Allies into Chungking, Lanchow and the mountains around Kumming, which in my opinion might be good enough and all they should try to do. But what I am really referring to is to totally knock China out of the war. In both of my campaigns it has been the case of me retreating into the mountains to the West and then using transports from India to keep some supply flow. However, in our second go around Viberpol has invaded India far enough to cut that flow. So, the question will be just like Obvert can I hold out in China until I run him out of India. If not I will eventually collapse as there is only a trickle of supply coming out of Kumming. However with stacking limits the Japanese really can't totally eliminate the Chinese if they have supply. I am talking with PDU off here. A good Japanese player can still take China out with or without SL. I know because Ark almost did it last game without invading India and will come damn close this one even with SL in play. And I think I have a pretty good grip on Allied play so he is not having an easy time of it.

However, as long as the Allies put up a good fight, I don't consider China to hold much strategic value for Japan. Last til mid 43 and it does not matter if you lose China or not. He will have already paid too much for it.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm not saying moving to India as Japan is the 'correct' strategy. I'm simply saying you're wrong about China being so easy you can get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Oh, I get your timeframe. I also get that you don't apparently know the SL map or much about the Japanese OOB.

I stopped reading at the fourth insult.

Have a nice day.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to obvert)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm not saying moving to India as Japan is the 'correct' strategy. I'm simply saying you're wrong about China being so easy you can get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Oh, I get your timeframe. I also get that you don't apparently know the SL map or much about the Japanese OOB.

I stopped reading at the fourth insult.

Have a nice day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

This is really funny to me. I actually have played the Japanese side pretty well in China. I actually made almost exactly the moves Bull is advocating and you're supporting. I still didn't get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Either time. I did wreck China and once made a truce so the game could continue, the other time took everything but Paoshan. I had Chungking in early 43.

I know how to do it. I'm simply saying I couldn't do what I did with SL in play and with the DBB air fixes and with PDU-off. I simply could not have gotten to Chungking in 2-3 months.

Nick is a very good payer taking on a hard task with PDU-off and its ridiculous to say he could have done what Bullwinkle is suggesting. he could have done more, sure. He might have gotten Chungking sooner than now. But not in 2-3 months. I think you know that too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Bull in a China shop: Very interesting post. To me you ask the most important question to come out of this Obvert v. Greyjoy match. I'm not so sure we can judge the wisdom of the India/China dichotomy for another 6 months. I see some tough slogging ahead for our learned friend Mr. Obvert.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

I like thought experiments.

IJA tank units as of Dec 7th 1941 - NB: this is a hastily prepared list and may not be absolutely accurate.

We'll ignore the Recon Rgt's, seeing as they combine to form divisions and can be quite handy.

You've two tank regiments in Indochina that can rail up to SW China within a week.
Two tank regiments on Pesacordes and one on Formosa are ready to be sent to China on Dec 7th.
One tank regiment is already loaded on a TF at Samah.

That's six tank regiments ready to be in South-West China by Dec 10th. Roughly two divisions worth.

There are 7 tank regiments in Manchuria, about 4 of which can be bought out on Dec 7th (assuming the inital budget of 500 PP's is spent) and the remaining 3 can be bought out at a rate of about 1 regiment every two days.

On top of that, there are two tank regiments and two armoured car units in Centarl China that can be bought out and shipped to South-West China.

At by the end of December '41, you can have 15 tank regiments and 2 armoured car units deployed in South-Western China, assuming you prioritize PP's towards buying these tank units out.

The impact on the DEI effort shouldn't be noticable. You'd still be keeping the detached Recon Regiments, so you'll still have mobile units that can take weakly held bases quickly. In exchange, you'll be able to have the bulk of Panzerarmee China en-route towards Liuchow/Kweilin by mid December '41 and nearly all of your armour concentrated by January '42.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

I like thought experiments.

IJA tank units as of Dec 7th 1941 - NB: this is a hastily prepared list and may not be absolutely accurate.

We'll ignore the Recon Rgt's, seeing as they combine to form divisions and can be quite handy.

You've two tank regiments in Indochina that can rail up to SW China within a week.
Two tank regiments on Pesacordes and one on Formosa are ready to be sent to China on Dec 7th.
One tank regiment is already loaded on a TF at Samah.

That's six tank regiments ready to be in South-West China by Dec 10th. Roughly two divisions worth.

There are 7 tank regiments in Manchuria, about 4 of which can be bought out on Dec 7th (assuming the inital budget of 500 PP's is spent) and the remaining 3 can be bought out at a rate of about 1 regiment every two days.

On top of that, there are two tank regiments and two armoured car units in Centarl China that can be bought out and shipped to South-West China.

At by the end of December '41, you can have 15 tank regiments and 2 armoured car units deployed in South-Western China, assuming you prioritize PP's towards buying these tank units out.

The impact on the DEI effort shouldn't be noticable. You'd still be keeping the detached Recon Regiments, so you'll still have mobile units that can take weakly held bases quickly. In exchange, you'll be able to have the bulk of Panzerarmee China en-route towards Liuchow/Kweilin by mid December '41 and nearly all of your armour concentrated by January '42.

Which really only highlights the dilemma of the Chinese/India gambit. If, as stated, (and of course I am right in this matter ) that with SL in effect then Japan at least has to invade India far enough to cut the air bridge to China, then where will Japanese tanks be needed the most? Send them all to China and you are setting up a disaster in India. As an Allied player I think that the best counter to an Indian invasion it to move every available tank unit to India. There is no better place to fight with Allied tanks than in the open terrain of India. By 8/42 even with the weak Indian tank brigades, the Allies can have tank parity there and by 10/42 as the Indian units start to flesh out with good medium tanks even Japanese armor divisions in India start to become pretty brittle. In my opinion to have a decent chance of taking substantial terrain in India and then holding it long enough to finish the work in China, the Japanese player needs to commit the bulk of his mobile units there. Then what is left over for China? Believe me, I would drool at the opportunities in India if my opponent invaded without a serious tank commitment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As requested Erik! AAR is up and running now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.

all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.

all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

I've seen a few like this. It would have happened to me without good advice from the AAR contributors and some knowledge f the past games that have resulted in the IJA running through India and almost getting it all. The radar game is for most in my mind, but Nick was a bit less experienced then than radar. until the end!

Didn't PzB also do well in India? And Cribtop made a very successful NE India invasion in a recent game. Getting a bunch of Allied commenwealth units off the board is a good second objective in India even if the first of securing more resources doesn't pay off as a positive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Link to Jocke's AAR, please??

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.

all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

I've seen a few like this. It would have happened to me without good advice from the AAR contributors and some knowledge f the past games that have resulted in the IJA running through India and almost getting it all. The radar game is for most in my mind, but Nick was a bit less experienced then than radar. until the end!

Didn't PzB also do well in India? And Cribtop made a very successful NE India invasion in a recent game. Getting a bunch of Allied commenwealth units off the board is a good second objective in India even if the first of securing more resources doesn't pay off as a positive.

I can get behind that desire, but it depends so much on your opponent's dispositions.