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RE: 2x4 High - 2/7/2015 9:52:19 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		It is going to be an epic air battle

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 61
RE: 2x4 High - 2/7/2015 10:58:15 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		After my air phase I get some control back.

Im not even going to look at my air casualties, max effort in very poor weather is probably making my pilots really mad.
But it must be done if this invasion is going to get anything done.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 62
RE: 2x4 High - 2/7/2015 11:02:48 PM   
smokindave34


Posts: 877
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		He seems pretty thin in the northeast portion of your line (although part of it may be low CV due to the mud). Also, you dramatically flipped the naval interdiction numbers during your turn so this thing isn't over yet.

Pelton can't stop every WA invasion can he?

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 63
RE: 2x4 High - 2/7/2015 11:18:55 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

He seems pretty thin in the northeast portion of your line (although part of it may be low CV due to the mud). Also, you dramatically flipped the naval interdiction numbers during your turn so this thing isn't over yet.

Pelton can't stop every WA invasion can he?

FOW there are real units there.

I have zero freight from last logistics phase because he had me isolated. Just what I could fly in the bad weather is what I have to work with. So im not attacking until I can get some freight on the beach.
All units have good supply so far, we will see how much pounding he gets done. Not very much interdiction on land for him to have to deal with soo . . .

We are certainly going to find out if he can stop this one. I think I have a 30 percent chance of staying ashore.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 64
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 4:42:41 AM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 20

Pretty much the entire allied airforce is flying in this screenshot. I cant figure out how to knock down those German interdiction numbers. Air superiority doesn't seem to intercept much.
The naval patrol escorts do not seem to have too much of an impact either.

I did screw up a couple loadouts on Halifaxs , dropping incendiary bombs probably doesn't do much for the naval interdiction values

I think all the Germans have to do is get to 99 interdiction, and no matter how much patrol the allies put out they can never go past 99 either.
So you just end up with a contested hex, which eats the transports and freight ships alive.
Im bombing the airfields that the fighters and bombers come from as well, but I cant get them all.
I ran out of air directive slots even with bomber command and 8th airforce helping out in the med





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 65
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 10:42:33 AM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		I would suggest not using Coastal AF for any ground attacks. They need to be totally on one naval patrol, and shrink your target boxes to cover only the beaches, and then stagger your other ones so they all overlap. You can only achieve 99 interdiction in any hex, and for a few turns the axis can maintain parity, but it shouldn't shut off the beaches with parity. It will slow your supply, but if he gets two points more he shuts your beaches down.

There comes a point of diminishing returns, and using bomber command and the 8th all the way in Italy doesn't really help. If you want more plane types in the med just transfer the air groups. Flying all the way from English bases will kill more bombers by OP losses than it's worth. I've tried it before and you lose a lot of bombers for little effect.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 66
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 10:52:43 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I think all the Germans have to do is get to 99 interdiction, and no matter how much patrol the allies put out they can never go past 99 either.



That´s how I understand it works too.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 67
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 10:55:59 AM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		You still receive supplies when it's 99/99. They just come at a reduced rate. When they have 20 points more in any hex, you lose control.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 68
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 10:59:34 AM   
JocMeister

 

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

You still receive supplies when it's 99/99. They just come at a reduced rate. When they have 20 points more in any hex, you lose control.


But you suffer transport and cargo losses at 99/99 don´t you?

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 69
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 11:23:51 AM   
LiquidSky


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Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Yes...the formula doesn't use the allied value to determine losses...just the axis value. And the bad weather.

All those allied air missions are doing squat for actually protecting the transports. They are busy trying to find Axis ships.

All you can do is get at least 80 interdiction value yourself so that the hex is at least contested.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 70
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 12:27:31 PM   
Baelfiin


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Joined: 6/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I would suggest not using Coastal AF for any ground attacks. They need to be totally on one naval patrol, and shrink your target boxes to cover only the beaches, and then stagger your other ones so they all overlap. You can only achieve 99 interdiction in any hex, and for a few turns the axis can maintain parity, but it shouldn't shut off the beaches with parity. It will slow your supply, but if he gets two points more he shuts your beaches down.

There comes a point of diminishing returns, and using bomber command and the 8th all the way in Italy doesn't really help. If you want more plane types in the med just transfer the air groups. Flying all the way from English bases will kill more bombers by OP losses than it's worth. I've tried it before and you lose a lot of bombers for little effect.

it depends on what air units are where, they are just HQ's with air directives. hurricanes and typhoons mostly on those ground attacks.

bomber command and 8th air force are not flying from England. My understanding is command range has no effect on air HQ. The problem is not enough directive slots to do everything that I want to do.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 71
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 12:29:14 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I think all the Germans have to do is get to 99 interdiction, and no matter how much patrol the allies put out they can never go past 99 either.



That´s how I understand it works too.


I am flying so many planes I could build a rail line on them and ship supply by rail.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 72
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 12:35:03 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Yes...the formula doesn't use the allied value to determine losses...just the axis value. And the bad weather.

All those allied air missions are doing squat for actually protecting the transports. They are busy trying to find Axis ships.

All you can do is get at least 80 interdiction value yourself so that the hex is at least contested.


Yeah this is the key for the germans to slow the allies down on a landing. Put up your 99 level interdiction and attrit the ships and supply coming in.
Heaven help the allies if they ever mess up and lose their max parity.
for whatever reason it seems that flying air superiority doesn't do much to the german naval interdiction. My theory of maxing out a lot of fighters in naval patrol would reduce the german control didn't work.

Lost 5 transports trying to run the 2 hex gauntlet into the beaches with reinforcements. That will hurt.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 73
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 12:38:38 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

You still receive supplies when it's 99/99. They just come at a reduced rate. When they have 20 points more in any hex, you lose control.

That's the whole key to invasion is getting freight onto the beach and preventing yourself from being isolated.
If the germans can put up 99 interdiction in the face of nearly the entire allied air force it is going to be a rough day on the boot =p

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 74
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 12:55:03 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
I am flying so many planes I could build a rail line on them and ship supply by rail.



(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 75
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 2:30:08 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Playing both sides, I will second Baelfin's premise. The Germans can get 99 on all beachhead hexes, and once they do whether you have 1,000 planes or 3,000 planes on Nav Patrol doesn't seem to matter. It's contested, and "topped out".

I would advocate a change in either a) making it tougher to get to 99 for both sides, and/or b) giving the WA more Troopship replacements. Losing too many troopships will kill a game, which is unfortunate.

_____________________________


(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 76
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 2:42:02 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		My bad!

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 77
RE: 2x4 High - 2/8/2015 5:44:57 PM   
Baelfiin


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Joined: 6/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Playing both sides, I will second Baelfin's premise. The Germans can get 99 on all beachhead hexes, and once they do whether you have 1,000 planes or 3,000 planes on Nav Patrol doesn't seem to matter. It's contested, and "topped out".

I would advocate a change in either a) making it tougher to get to 99 for both sides, and/or b) giving the WA more Troopship replacements. Losing too many troopships will kill a game, which is unfortunate.

Its getting ugly for losses. .11 so every transport with dudes on it is a bunch of Vp's hehe

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 78
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 4:47:04 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

I might try something different when I hit Italy...put those copious amounts of AA support units into my invasion divisions. Maybe they can attrit his airforce as they fly over on there way to the water hexes behind me.

_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 79
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 9:14:16 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
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quote:

a) making it tougher to get to 99 for both sides


There are strong modifiers that prevent naval values to go up too high. It could be that it stops working when initial strikes are way too heavy.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 80
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 1:55:53 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I might try something different when I hit Italy...put those copious amounts of AA support units into my invasion divisions. Maybe they can attrit his airforce as they fly over on there way to the water hexes behind me.

Some of the naval interdictions are flying over the ports, some of them get engaged by 1k plus flak guns. They do not seem to have much effect. but those naval strikes are flying at 22k so too high for most of the allied guns to do anything to them.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 81
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 2:05:17 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

a) making it tougher to get to 99 for both sides


There are strong modifiers that prevent naval values to go up too high. It could be that it stops working when initial strikes are way too heavy.

There is one hex where the Germans fly three missions for 2, 4 and 8ish interdiction points.
I flew one strike for 1250+ interdiction points. The hex itself is 99/99. This hex also has a single hex AS mission with one full group of p47.
Not one interception. And no apparent reduction in the German interdiction value for the hex. The save might be up still on the server.
In this server game .11 the Germans don't seem to have overwhelming amounts of air, it just seems to be impossible to knock the numbers back the way you say it can be.
I could be missing a setting or something though, or have something wrong.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 82
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 2:25:06 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

The save might be up still on the server.


Is this a new save before execution?

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 83
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 2:56:07 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		So I am thinking now that Air Superiority is either worthless as a defensive tool, or its effects are not displayed for the player to see and be able to evaluate.
Possibly for naval interdiction the enemy interdiction numbers are mitigated?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 84
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:10:55 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

The save might be up still on the server.


Is this a new save before execution?

I don't know how far back the server holds them, It is one or two turns back IIRC.

The screenshots that I am posting now are from the current allied turn before air phase execution.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 85
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:11:42 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Same amount of planes much less effect




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 86
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:12:55 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		next day, again much less effect than day one.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Baelfiin -- 2/9/2015 4:14:01 PM >

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 87
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:15:56 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		6th day of air phase. Again much less interdiction value than day 1




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 88
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:19:58 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Last day of air phase.
Again low interdict value compared to day one, but consistent with the number of planes and the interdict values of days 2 through 6.
So what made day 1 special? Possibly great die roll?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 89
RE: 2x4 High - 2/9/2015 3:45:53 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Some more great numbers on day 1.

120 p47's on AS here. Plus their flight path is through another AS with 70 p47.
No interceptions. Flak gets some work done on these guys that are in range.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 90
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