SpecOps, Paratroops or Gliders?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> SpecOps, Paratroops or Gliders?

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SpecOps, Paratroops or Gliders? - 3/7/2003 1:47:57 PM

mandreads

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/7/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline

Hi!

First some background as I have been inactive for a few years from the forums. I played SP:WaW when it was version about 3 and 4. Then I took a break, but now I've started playing 7.1. So I know the basics of the game.

I've learned very much from the forum, but I haven't seen much discussion about gliders, paratroops and special operations forces.

I think they all do about the same thing: get to the back of the enemy lines.

What are the strategic differences between these three? How about costs? Is there any tactics when and how to use them? What is the difference between gliders and parachute drops? (Except the fact that the gliders land after they are done?) Why would I use the other and why? How to target them (It seems to me that they miss target quite often)?

Any information about old threads where this is discussed? Anyone interrested in writing T.O.T (like the artillery one) *cough*Cpt.Pixel*cough*? Hints'n'Tips?

Post #: 1

- 3/7/2003 8:52:07 PM

DerC

Posts: 299
Joined: 5/13/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

Personally, I can't remember to have seen any successfull paratroop/glider attacks. The main problems it seems to me are:
1.) Your enemy can see where your paratroopers are dropping off
2.) There just isn't anyone around who doesn't leave some units in the back to guard his HQ, artillery and VHs. (At least if there are enough points available)

Spec ops, on the other hand, I've found to be useful. At least if they're cheap enough, like the Russian partisans, they can cause a lot of mayhem in the enemy's rear. :D

Some tips on using infiltrating forces might be useful!

PS. Welcome to the forums, mandreads! :)

_____________________________

If you're ever having an argument with an idiot make sure he isn't.

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Post #: 2

- 3/7/2003 9:13:27 PM

Redleg

Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline

I need to play with gliders more. I personally tend to use paratroops more since they don't suppress so badly when they land.

Infiltrators - relatively expensive and a large part of them don't ever arrive. They normally begin to arrive at turn 3-4 and are finished by turn 9-10 so they enter piece-meal. This limits their value a lot.

My favorite airborne scheme is to delay the jump until about 15-20 turns into a long battle. By this time, the rear area is usually forgotten as rear-guards are pulled into the main line of resistance.

I have had good luck with paras in assault/advance missions; usually don't use them in meeting engagements.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 3

- 3/7/2003 9:25:42 PM

Paska Taikuri

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2002
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline

In the first pbem I ever played, my Gebirgsj�gers (or geburtstagj�gers, as my opponent called them) were an important part of my plan. And it worked. My idea was to infiltrate them in the rear areas, and if possible take the eastern victory hexes. It didn't work out, but still it tied up his tactical reserve of motorized infantry, which allowed my troops to grab the victory hexes he had intended to take.

In the next game, I intend to drop paratroopers in the final turns, hoping that he has already used up his reserves.

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Post #: 4

- 3/7/2003 9:52:08 PM

Redleg

Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
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Paras are so much fun that I am anxious to get them on the ground but it does seem that a delayed jump of fresh troops can be quite effective.

Right now I have two companies on the ground that jumped on turn 10. They are getting shot up very badly but drew off a lot of the enemy (German) resources and reinforcements which opened up possibilities along the main battle lines.

My opponent re-directed artillery, panzers, armored cars and mech infantry to deal with the paras. All of this would have been thrown against my advancing Soviets without the paras.

Sometimes it goes badly and the paras are wiped out entirely. ;)

Troop quality is a giant factor in paras and infiltrators. Weak Soviets are tough to keep alive if attacked by grenadiers and panzers.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 5

- 3/7/2003 11:10:19 PM

Kaakao

Posts: 207
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

Another thing to try with infiltrators is to leave the v-hex's untouched and use them to attack enemy from behind or setting up somekind of an ambush along the roads or possible routes for reinforces. The thing that only few of them infiltrate succesfully makes one squad very expensive (let's say that out of 3 squad specs ops. plt only one squad infiltrates, you just used over 100 points for one squad). This isn't a problem with the soviets and their cheap units but really comes into play when considering the Germans.

One great thing with gliders is that your opponent doesn't see what you land with them. There can be atg's (if I remember right, 75mm german atg should fit in a glider), light vehicles, infantry or nothing. Very enjoying to watch enemy re-directing troops against nothing :)

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Post #: 6

- 3/7/2003 11:25:53 PM

rbrunsman

Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

Paras also drop in a line about 10 hexes long for about 4 squads, IIRC. Gliders troops all land in the same spot, so if you have time to rally them before the enemy shows up you have a better chance of surviving and giving the enemy a hard time.

Infiltrators take longer to arrive the farther away from your side of the map you insert them. VikingNo2 taught me the hard way about infiltrators placed right on those common central strategic hills. I hade commandos appearing with satchel charges right next to my reverse slope tanks.:eek:

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 7

- 3/8/2003 1:53:45 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaakao
[B]Another thing to try with infiltrators is to leave the v-hex's untouched and use them to attack enemy from behind or setting up somekind of an ambush along the roads or possible routes for reinforces. The thing that only few of them infiltrate succesfully makes one squad very expensive (let's say that out of 3 squad specs ops. plt only one squad infiltrates, you just used over 100 points for one squad). This isn't a problem with the soviets and their cheap units but really comes into play when considering the Germans.

One great thing with gliders is that your opponent doesn't see what you land with them. There can be atg's (if I remember right, 75mm german atg should fit in a glider), light vehicles, infantry or nothing. Very enjoying to watch enemy re-directing troops against nothing :) [/B][/QUOTE]

I like to leave the VHs untouched, so as not to give away my existence and position too soon. Then I use the Infiltrators as ad-hoc Forward Observers. It's very handy to know what is going on behind that inevitable wall of smoke defining the frontline.

Covering the roads to the enemy's reinforcement hex is also a great tactic. But again, I don't use the squad to engage in combat, I use it for the reccon intel. Used in this manner, the SO Partisan is arguably the best infiltrator available.

I've also done that dummy glider drop. My tactical reasoning was different though. I'd intended for the delayed glider arrival to give me an aerial snapshot reccon of enemy positions, around say, turn 5. This alone makes it worth the cost, to me. The added benefit of freaking out my opponent and having him hare off to an empty glider landing was just additional gravy. Great fun to watch! :D

We've also discussed loading gliders/cargoair with nothing but Snipers, Scouts and Inf AT. Then drop them EVERYWHERE in his rear area. This doesn't cost too much, and since your opponent doesn't know what you're doing, he'll probably assume the worst. (This kind of simulates that dummy doll drop mentioned in the Longest Day. I think they called him Rufus?)

While he's trying to figure out where your paratroop companies have disappeared to, you've got little beady Scout eyes looking out of every tree and rough spot on his side of the map. And, trust me on this, a couple of snipers can rip up an artillery park of trucks and mortars or howitzers. They're also tough on retreating crews, light vehicles and the occasional AT gun waiting in ambush.

Combine this with a conventional air drop and watch the madness ensue. :D

If you're doing a 'serious' air drop, using infiltrators to soften-up the drop zone is a good idea. Delay the airdrop until after turn 8 or so, maybe later if you've got the time available. This give the infiltrators time to arrive and have a few turns to do some damage.

Have the infiltrators either lead defenses away from the drop zone or destroy or disable defenses in or near the drop (like AAA, for instance). At the very least, they can spot juicy targets for your artillery.

Surrounding the drop zone with artillery smoke (and infantry smoke if you're nearby) gives the paratroops a better chance to recover from the jump before going into battle. Then they're covered by smoke while they rally. It's certainly better than dropping them into an open, clear field. :rolleyes: Timing is important though. You don't want to give away the location of your drop zone too soon.

Multiple barrage sites and delayed barrages can help to confuse and disorient the enemy even further. Staggering your para/glider arrivals every 2-3 turns at widely different locations will force the enemy to compensate for his rapidly changing battle situation. If it's a flock of 'empties' he's going after, so much the better. :D

The more activity you can generate over a larger area, the more difficult you make it for the enemy to deal with your attack.

Try these tactics. They may improve your paradrop's operational effectivity. :cool:

[SIZE=1](I'll have to write something serious on this someday)[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 8

- 3/8/2003 2:21:01 AM

maniacalmonkey

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline

I've had some fun with glider-borne troops a while back. 'course, both me and my opponent are very green at this stuff and I guess a more veteran commander would make mincemeat out of them...

Anyway, I used gliders to drop in a company of Rangers and some recon teams behind enemy lines. The LZ was some 8-10 hexes from their objective and the key was to rally them fast and get them out of the LZ before the fury of artillery and reserves came down on them. While drawing off reserves is a good thing in itself, Rangers are a bit too expensive for that kind of thing :)

The Ranger company made for the edge of the woods they landed in and laid down fire into the rear of the enemy MLR, while the Recon squads spread out to cover their flanks and rear. An M9 bazooka team set up at a crossroads and kept reeeeally quiet. Sure enough, a handful of AFV's came rumbling down the road expecting to deal easy with a handful of infantry squads, and faced the might of the M9.

This shook my opponent up enough to send in more armour and mechanized units to flush the Rangers out of the woods - this came at around the same time as my mechanized assault on his shaken section of battle line. My armour broke through with little trouble and caught his incoming reserves in the flank. It was a blamfest! Result - a big gaping hole in the enemy MLR, a lot of reserves shot to pieces, and a nearly intact Ranger company to consilidate the gap while more of my forces flooded through.

I won - but as I said, a better (more cool-headed) reaction by the enemy would have smashed my plan to pieces. It was fun though :)

_____________________________

When cities burn and armies turn,
and flee in disarray,
Cowards will cry 'tis best to fly
and fight another day,
But warriors know it in their marrow when they
die and fall,
It is better to have fought and lost than not have
fought at all.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 9

- 3/8/2003 4:35:29 AM

Kaakao

Posts: 207
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

While reading these posts I noticed that there's no information regarding defence against these troops.

Some usefull tips.

Don't stack your arty in a small area or adjacent hexes. As Capt. P. said, these are easy to destroy. To protect against this is to leave some room between your mortars and guns. This way enemy's bombarment against your artypark won't be as effective and you'll have some untouched arty ready to be fired. Also, this way your mortars can give support to others if attacked, 120mm shells do bad damage at close range :cool: Also, remember to attach some units to guard your artypark.

Don't stack your reserve. This way you once again give the enemy a chance to infiltrate right on top of your company of Tigers and wreck havoc among them. Keeping separate reserves is probably the wisest thing to do. This way your reaction time against paradrops and infiltrators won't be so long and you'll get them before they disappear only to be found ambushing that important road.

If there's a chance that an airdrop or some specs ops. actions will happen, spread a small amount of troops around your area. Some mg's, snipers and scouts will do the trick. They'll inform you if there's something that shouldn't be there.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 10

- 3/9/2003 7:54:09 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

I just tried airdropping an SNLF Company+ (Reinforced with Engineers) against U.S. Army in an Assault. As in, I only bought SNLF and the Engineers, and I airdropped my entire freaking force into his rear area. I gave the U.S. Army about 3000 points, I took about 2000 (IIRC).

Well, let's just say that against the AI it worked REALLY well. His prepared positions were almost useless--he mostly kept arty there, which really just kept the position warm until my units occupied the prepared position and laid down a base of fire on his main force--which was just reacting to me 1.) Taking 3 sets of VH's, and 2.) Annihilating his artillery.

Now, if I'd taken 3000 points too, I may have put some light tanks on my lines and moved them up the minute the U.S. moved out of their forward prepared positions. Or maybe some Cavalry or Motorcycle troops--the latter so I could keep them well hidden until the last minute.

The only hitch was he outflanked me... so that by the time 15 turns were up, he'd retaken 1 cluster of VH's and half of another, both in his extreme rear. It was amazing. The only full Squads I'd lost were 2 from the Platoon I designated as being my storm, and 3 scout platoons that stumbled upon some Thompson+BAR+Rifle Grenade+Hand Grenade units (not too surprising that I lost them, ne?). If I hadn't been chasing his ragged units around, I could have held the battlefield... but this was just a fun test. ^____^

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Post #: 11

- 3/9/2003 11:00:52 AM

Redleg

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Joined: 5/23/2000
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The paratroops Vs AI is interesting - it never occurred to me to try that.

Defense: Since I try to always play with C/C turned on, I normally position infantry behind the v-hexes and artillery assets so when the balloon goes up, they can move forward to the areas I want to defend. If vis makes if appropriate, I use MG for this as well.

With C/C turned on, the invading paras will be limited in direction in the same way my troops are. I assume the paras objectives will be the v-hexes.

Anyway, it works for me. ;)

Sometimes I support paras with artillery; sometimes they drop with light mortars.

When purchasing artillery, I purchase the smallest formations available and scatter them. Playing H2H helps in this since the smoke bombs don't reveal artillery positions. A very nice feature.

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Post #: 12

- 3/9/2003 7:00:04 PM

maniacalmonkey

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: The Netherlands
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Aye, against the AI you can play hell with para's. If you purchase a company of paratroopers and maybe a few gliders with AT guns, you can set up a very powerful position that the AI will be hard-pressed to crack because your main force is deployed on the MLR.

US Airborne are especially good for this. Their Airborne platoons/companies fit nicely into transport aircraft sections (while a German FJ platoon simply won't fit into a section of German transports???) and the troops are excellent and well equipped - especially once the M9 Bazooka comes around. Also, the US has powerful AT guns that will still fit into a glider (3" AT) AND you can use Airborne jeeps (which also fit into gliders) to drag them around.

Just remember to plot the gliders a turn or two later than the airdrop, you probably want to secure your DZ/LZ before they come in as glider-borne troops land with a lot of suppressions and really need some safety to recover and get set up.

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Post #: 13

- 3/11/2003 11:01:36 PM

AngryDeemon1

Posts: 740
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From: Swamp, Hellhole (Tampa, Florida)
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Just had two plus companies of soviet Riflemen dropped behind my front lines. So far its been one turn and about a third of them are down. Not to effective a drop.

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Post #: 14

Defense against infiltrators, paradrops and gliders? - 3/12/2003 2:32:22 AM

Paska Taikuri

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2002
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline

How do you think one should defend against attacks of the above type?

My own tried-and-true method has been to buy a few Flammwagens or other flametanks as a reserve to be used in the final stage of the battle. Meanwhile, they are also highly effective against lightly armed paratroopers (except that the US paratroopers tend to put up a fight with those bazookas).

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Post #: 15

- 3/12/2003 2:54:43 AM

Irinami

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From: Florida, USA
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Sounds good to me, Paska. Basically, I'd have a small force incapable of fending off an Abn/Infiltrator attack to be used for that mission... as well as reserve or special units. eg...

A 2 MMG's in reserve, as well as a sniper, 2 recon patrols, 2 recon teams, for combatting infiltrators like this.

Then the Engineers that are either a.) not needed anymore or b.) not needed yet, are there to fight off the enemy. Halftracks that are too fragile or not needed yet/anymore can be used too. Anything you have to defend your arty park can be used. Tanks with their main guns taken out that you have sitting back could be used. Beat up units can be set up to defend too, as can your AAA.

Basically, anything you bought special-purpose that isn't being used now can augment your defensive force. Anything you've bought as a reserve may be used to augment your defensive force. This is a wonderful role for your infiltrator units in a campaign if they don't have the requisite experience (100+) to be useful infiltrators.

That's what came up offhand.

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Post #: 16

- 3/12/2003 4:10:13 AM

Belisarius

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Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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For gliders and paradrops, SPAAA is the weapon of choice. Armored if you can afford it, but flatbeds work nice as well. Good chance of hitting the slow gliders, and once the troops are on the ground, AA is the unrivaled infantry mower. This is improved by the fact that AB troops land in a suppressed status. They won't fire back first thing. :D

Infiltators are much worse, engineer teams, MG teams and FT teams are better to deal with those.

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Post #: 17

- 3/13/2003 8:58:29 AM

Bernie

Posts: 1779
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From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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A couple of things that have worked well for me are:

Use infiltrators as rear area spies only. Set their range to 0 (sometimes to 1, depending on what they're armed with) and just use them to pinpoint reserves and artyparks for your own arty.

Gliders filled with light tanks or APC's are wonderful behind enemy lines. Nothing like the satisfaction of pinning enemy armor between tanks front and rear.

Always, always, always smoke your drop zones the turn before your units arrive! Gives 'em time to be rallied and take covering positions.

On defense, I try not to leave static units in my rear areas at all. No ammo dumps, towed arty (unless they have prime movers standing by) and no emplaced AA. You should also look at the map beforehand and ask yourself, "If I were playing against myself, where would I drop AB or slide in infiltrators?" and then post some rear guards around those areas.

Mines around any rear area units that you just [I]have[/I] to leave in place also make a pretty effective deterrent against surprise attacks.

100 points worth of snipers in your rear areas can also make life miserable for dropped or infiltrating troops. They won't destroy your average size troop drop, but they do a very effective job of supressing them until you can get other units to the area.

And, of course, there are other tips I just have to hold onto for now... never can tell who I might be playing a PBEM game against next. :)

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Post #: 18

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