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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 11:14:54 PM   
Mickrocks201

 

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From: Santa Fe, NM
Status: offline 		So in reading this discussion, bombing oil and fuel will not cause Axis problems, only gain VP? Axis will never run out no matter Ho hard you bomb?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 11:24:39 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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Status: offline 		16 VPs last turn!






Attachment (1)

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 11:29:18 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Hasn't been proven, but yes, it's an educated guess. In fact, it would, as I have learned is this forum, rather reflect historical realities. Maybe it's gonna work in the oil/fuel business. But lots of (WA) people - including myself - still fiddle around to improve their air war skills.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 12:38:32 AM   
Mickrocks201

 

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From: Santa Fe, NM
Status: offline 		Ah, so it is just as abstract as uboat and v-weapon Bombing. VP management only. Sort of disappointing to find this out... I always like to bomb oil & fuel figuring it would impact the Luftwaffe, but I guess best to just follow the lead outlined here and BTF out of HI.


< Message edited by mickrocks -- 2/28/2015 1:40:15 AM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 1:05:16 AM   
LiquidSky


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Status: offline 		Don't forget that bombing vps goes down as the war moves along. Although I suppose you can make up some of that as you have more bombers and less interceptors to worry about

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 1:06:54 AM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		What I'm trying to say: from what I've seen no WA player has SO FAR been able to cripple an axis production line. As for me, could be I am not good enough YET. Game is out only for a couple of weeks, and hopefully there is a lot more to discover. You may be right, but I think we should try to find out.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 1:10:01 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

What I'm trying to say: from what I've seen no WA player has SO FAR been able to cripple an axis production line. As for me, could be I am not good enough YET. Game is out only for a couple of weeks, and hopefully there is a lot more to discover. You may be right, but I think we should try to find out.



I am not looking to cripple the Axis. Just impact them, even like a across the board 5% reduction in fighting effectiveness. But it is hard to know if any combination of what I am doing is actually having any sort of effect.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 1:37:13 AM   
NotOneStepBack


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Status: offline 		Also, it matters more to hit as many targets as you can, instead of inflicting a lot of damage on one. The VP calculation works so that if a factory is damaged at all, even with 1%, it will count, just like u-boats.

I have been ignoring bomber losses in general, they don't seem to matter too much.

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 2/28/2015 2:38:57 AM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 2:26:11 AM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

But it is hard to know if any combination of what I am doing is actually having any sort of effect.


That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. And as a starter, I focus on one asset, try to maximize damage and see what happens.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

The VP calculation works so that if a factory is damaged at all, even with 1%, it will count, just like u-boats.


Getting VPs for barely scratching the roof of a U-Boat pen, that's a VP System that is hard to understand. So far, I don't care for VPs. In my recent GC I was ahead of (historical) datelines in every department except Italy north of Rome, went as requested after the U-Boat factories, bombed the hell out of VWS and most of the VWF, visited Berlin in mid March 45, had no excess casualties, giving an impressive -79 VPs. Final result: a minor victory just because of some bonus points.

< Message edited by Balou -- 2/28/2015 3:27:30 AM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:32:58 AM   
decourcy2

 

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Status: offline 		Balou, others, your are mistaken on the VP's. Bombing VP's are size of factory multiplied by (damage in % divided by 1000). Thus, if a factory has 100% damage you will get 100 times more score for it.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:51:44 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

One thing I wondered, how worth it is it to bomb during the bad winter months where conditions are Very Poor? I've been resting my WA air fleet during bad weather.


Strategic bombing should be done in all weathers. By late 43 Heavy bomber pools won´t be an issue and for some reason you don´t lose VPs for planes lost. But every little positive VP is golden. I would happily trade 200 bombers for 2 VPs.

I´ve driven the 8th, 15th and BC into the ground and still have around 1000+ B17/24 for the US and well over 1000 Lancs for the Brits.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 11:04:30 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		I would like to make a few points here from the play testing.

1. The game engine does support the effects of bombing an industry out of the water. During play testing I was able to destroy the Axis oil & fuel in early 44. The Axis could not fly, all mech units had less than 10 MPs (most about 6), and their industrial production suffered due to lack of fuel. There have since been adjustments to the air war effectiveness that stopped that from happening. There is no way the Allies should have been able to destroy the Oil & Fuel industries that quickly. But the fact remains is that, if you do destroy them, there is an effect in the production system.

2. I have bombed aircraft factories (specifically the FW190 and ME109 factories) and had the Axis on the ropes with fighter aircraft. Which made my air war much easier, which hurt the Axis, etc. At one time I was able to get Axis fighter production down to less than 50 for eight turns in a row. The Axis cannot handle that well.

3. Some random thoughts: I have never hit just the HI or Resource targets but it could be interesting to see what it would do. Manpower repairs fast. Oil and Fuel targets keep the damage longer. Industrial sites with 50% or more damage will not produce so aiming for 100% is overkill (but fun). Area bombing will usually keep the target sites (depending on intensity, number of aircraft, quality of leadership, etc) about 30 - 40% damaged. Rarely will a site with over 30% damage be targeted unless you are out of targets in an area bombing AD. VW Weapons are harder to avoid the penalties than the UBoats and seem to accumulate a lot more negative VPs.

I will try and have some more details and analysis soon on the VWeapons vs UBoat situation. I am working on that analysis at the moment.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 12:14:44 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mickrocks

Ah, so it is just as abstract as uboat and v-weapon Bombing. VP management only. Sort of disappointing to find this out... I always like to bomb oil & fuel figuring it would impact the Luftwaffe, but I guess best to just follow the lead outlined here and BTF out of HI.


Guys, you need to read what is being said. Oil and fuel can be reduced by it is hard. The first post missed synth. Someone needs to do a test before we all give up

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 12:21:43 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. And as a starter, I focus on one asset, try to maximize damage and see what
Getting VPs for barely scratching the roof of a U-Boat pen, that's a VP System that is hard to understand. So far, I don't care for VPs. In my recent GC I was ahead of (historical) datelines in every department except Italy north of Rome, went as requested after the U-Boat factories, bombed the hell out of VWS and most of the VWF, visited Berlin in mid March 45, had no excess casualties, giving an impressive -79 VPs. Final result: a minor victory just because of some bonus points.

What are these u boat pens everyone is talking about? U boat pens (generally) are in France. What we are bombing is factories and ship yards. Without 20ft roofs. The pens aren't in game.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 1:59:36 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		The following is the Axis Oil Pool for my server game vs Pelton. It is currently turn 73 (Nov 18, 1944). Notice that the Axis oil pool is essentially gone and only this turn's production is in the pool. The red circle is the approx. time that the Soviets took Ploesti - note that I had already put the downward spiral in the Oil Pool by that time.






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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 2:00:39 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		Here is the corresponding Fuel Stores for the game. Note that it is JUST beginning to go downward after the Oil Pool is zeroed out.






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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 2:02:14 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		I have been preoccupied with the ground combat in France and the VWeapon sites so I have not been hitting the Synth Fuel factories like I should be to really turn the Fuel downward. I plan on correcting that oversight this turn.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 2:04:51 PM   
carlkay58

 

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 3:20:08 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. And as a starter, I focus on one asset, try to maximize damage and see what
Getting VPs for barely scratching the roof of a U-Boat pen, that's a VP System that is hard to understand. So far, I don't care for VPs. In my recent GC I was ahead of (historical) datelines in every department except Italy north of Rome, went as requested after the U-Boat factories, bombed the hell out of VWS and most of the VWF, visited Berlin in mid March 45, had no excess casualties, giving an impressive -79 VPs. Final result: a minor victory just because of some bonus points.

What are these u boat pens everyone is talking about? U boat pens (generally) are in France. What we are bombing is factories and ship yards. Without 20ft roofs. The pens aren't in game.


You're absolutely right, big error. Still: My point were VPs. VPs awarded for a 1% damage ? Really ?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 3:57:35 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

You're absolutely right, big error. Still: My point were VPs. VPs awarded for a 1% damage ? Really ?


not quite, if I understand right, you get something towards the VP if the factory/manpower thing doesn't work in that turn, with this related to the size of the factory/thing.

the % you see on the map as damage is the chance it won't operate. So 1% damage means there is a 1% chance of it not working and 99% of it working. But the factory either fully works (subject to having the inputs it needs) or doesn't, that part of the equation is binary.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:05:29 PM   
decourcy2

 

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Status: offline 		Did anyone read my reply? Am i wearing a cloak of invisibility? I just explained how victory points and damage work Balou.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:16:01 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Of course I saw your reply, no offense meant. I don't question your knowledge. But I question the "we-start-at-1% damage" VP System

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:28:57 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.


I don't think it did. Most sources seem to argue that German industrial production hit its peak in 1944 and only declined in 1945 due to loss of territory.

The quote may be anecdotal but one Allied general summarised the situation in May 1945 as 'the Soviets won the war, we just happened to be nearby'.

The decisive element was the destruction of manpower and material by the Soviets, plus the steady loss of critical resources as the Red Army advanced into regions like Silesia and took over the oil regions in Rumania and Hungary.

What the game models well, is that there was an enduring belief among the allies that strategic bombing could be decisive, Harris persisted in his belief that civilian morale would crack as a result. For the British from 1940-3, Strategic bombing was the only offensive tool, so it was easy to decide to believe it was effective. I think the Americans were more pragmatic, but still they had invested a huge amount in heavy bombers so there was a bit of a mindset that once you'd built the blessed things, you really had to us them.


Yup its true the bombing did next to nothing to slow german production. They had planes, but no pilots/they had tank parks full of tanks, but no crews ect ect ect.

The bombing did keep 10,000's of 88's off the front lines.

Germans simply ran out of men, but Russia alone could in no way have taken out Germany alone.

Germany was bleeding Russia to death, simply math based on population and loses tells the truth as do bombing records vs german production.

Allot of the victory's write the history shortly after a conflict, but over time the truth comes out.

Russia without US trucks would have been fighting in the Urals by 43.

Germany was defeated by Russia and Western Allies not WA or Russia solo.




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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 5:58:21 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		The Soviets did about 75% of the work, Pelton. This is the part that most of us in the west don't seem to get.

Also, the Soviets were fighting without US trucks all the way through Stalingrad, which as I recall is nowhere near the Urals. Lend lease really only got going at a very late date. Western aid sped the Soviet advance. It did not save the Soviet Union, that the Soviets did pretty much on their own and at horrific cost.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 6:01:10 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Status: offline 		Meanwhile, back at the topic of the thread...

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 10:50:56 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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Status: offline 		Turn 10...gentlemen I believe I have broken the bombing code.






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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 10:56:36 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
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Status: offline 		Industrial damage and how it works:

UBoat & VWeapon VP Loss: Only the factories that are undamaged (0% damage) are considered in calculating the VP loss for these categories. If at least 1% damage exist on a site, it contributes nothing to the VP Loss equation.

Industrial Damage and Production Loss: If a random (50) <= % damage, then the industrial site will not produce this turn. Thus a site that has 50+% damage is out of production. If the industrial site is an oil factory with a size value of 20 and 20% damaged then it will either produce 20 Oil Points (60% of the time) this turn or 0 (40% of the time) - there is no between variable. It is all or nothing.

Industrial Bombing VP Gain: These are calculated as a percentage of damaged industry. So the VPs for the above Oil industrial site will be based on 20 (damage) times 20 (size) divided by 1000 or 0.4 Strategic Bombing Points. The only industries that matter in this category are German Manpower, German HI, oil, fuel, and synthetic fuel. No other damage is used in these calculations.


< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 2/28/2015 11:58:48 PM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/28/2015 11:12:39 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Industrial damage and how it works:

UBoat & VWeapon VP Loss: Only the factories that are undamaged (0% damage) are considered in calculating the VP loss for these categories. If at least 1% damage exist on a site, it contributes nothing to the VP Loss equation.

Industrial Damage and Production Loss: If a random (50) <= % damage, then the industrial site will not produce this turn. Thus a site that has 50+% damage is out of production. If the industrial site is an oil factory with a size value of 20 and 20% damaged then it will either produce 20 Oil Points (60% of the time) this turn or 0 (40% of the time) - there is no between variable. It is all or nothing.

Industrial Bombing VP Gain: These are calculated as a percentage of damaged industry. So the VPs for the above Oil industrial site will be based on 20 (damage) times 20 (size) divided by 1000 or 0.4 Strategic Bombing Points. The only industries that matter in this category are German Manpower, German HI, oil, fuel, and synthetic fuel. No other damage is used in these calculations.




This is correct and it seems like HI stays damaged longer than other targets, which means it gives you a cumulative effect on VPs if you keep switching up targets, and the German doesn't know where to defend.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 3/1/2015 6:23:25 AM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Industrial Bombing VP Gain: These are calculated as a percentage of damaged industry. So the VPs for the above Oil industrial site will be based on 20 (damage) times 20 (size) divided by 1000 or 0.4 Strategic Bombing Points. The only industries that matter in this category are German Manpower, German HI, oil, fuel, and synthetic fuel. No other damage is used in these calculations.



Thanks for sharing.

Will the calculation of Ind Bomb VPs be "reset" for the next turn ? In other words: existing damage + additional damage or additional damage only ?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 3/1/2015 11:20:56 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		It is the amount of damage on the target at the time of VP calculation. So it is accumulated damage that is counted.

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Post #: 60
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