Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

quote:

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

quote:

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I have to say its a surprize Dutch with a tommy gun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

quote:

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

Very concise synopsis Jim.

Unfortunately the results you outline in India give the game a decidedly pro Japanese slant from the obviously biased perspective of an AFB.

Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I would think the same is true for the over the top ability of the Japanese to use the invulnerable KB to cover an invasion of Australia in January 42 to facilitate running up a huge VP total by strategic bombing industry that has zero fighter cover.

The Japanese didn't know the KB was invulnerable.

Sorry for drifting off topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There are counter invasion forces for India. See Bullwinkles posts. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2616532

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
No one is arguing that they are missing any units/equipment. I was just commenting on the fact the hard coded replacement pools assume their collapse no matter what. What if a Japanese player decides for whatever reason to not conquer the entire DEI? Are you saying the Dutch should wither away and die anyway?
Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
There was nothing to fill the pools. There were no pools. That is what the game represents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Time for me to come clean on where I stand.

It isn't so much that I am looking for the Allied side to have the kind of flexibility the Japanese side has, which by the way would only be fair.

It's that I really, really want the Japanese side to have to suffer with the kind of historical handicaps the Allied side is forced to operate under.

I'll go ahead and duck under the table now to avoid the storm of put down I know is coming from the JFBs.

quote:

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There is always the editor. The real problem is the fact that the Dutch were hesitant to use and arm the native forces without enough European officers to command them. You can add new TO&E for them but I would not have significant squad replacements going past 6/42.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Not completely off topic..I do use the editor to produce American made aircraft used by the Dutch for the units which did the historical "Sir Robin" to Australia..Otherwise, they will run out and waiting for one plane every six months is just no fun.
I keep it to the planes I know the Dutch flew, (including those B-25's which Pappy Gunn "swiped back fair and square"...)

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There is always the editor. The real problem is the fact that the Dutch were hesitant to use and arm the native forces without enough European officers to command them. You can add new TO&E for them but I would not have significant squad replacements going past 6/42.

There is another way:

1. Play it like the US transports and units on its way, or just about to leave the US for the Philippines, are not held up but allowed to continue. Big difference.
2. Concentrate the Asiatic Fleet, subs and all, purely to assist in the reinforcement of the Philippines. Hart had this option open to him but didn't use it.
3. Drop the ABDA cooperation as it were and assist, and get assistance from, the Dutch in the Moluccans. They had an excellent Command and Control system there.
4. Do the same with the Anzacs.

These are the main pre-requisites in my book project "Saving MacArthur". That is what I hope to use WitP for....

What the Dutch needed was a proper influx of support forces from the outside in the right places at the right time. Same could be said of the The Philippines...

Fred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
There was nothing to fill the pools. There were no pools. That is what the game represents.

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. In game the force pools simply stop as I assume the designers simply thought they’d be dead so never addressed the slim chance they might live on to fight till the end in a game.

Had they actually survived and not been conquered, there would have been lots of lend lease for sure (Java or any of the big islands would have been viewed as invaluable by the allies and they would have been happy to give the Dutch anything they asked for to keep them fighting). I would also think it’s safe to assume the Prinses Irene Brigade and the Dutch volunteers that were marshaled and organized in England would have found their way to the NEI’s as that would have been territory in friendly hands considered to be their home turf.

I’m not saying the Dutch would have ever been a major military force in the Pacific, but like any peoples involved in war, they would have found ways to remain a viable military threat to their enemies.

Jim

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer