Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (Full Version)

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Yaab -> Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 11:29:12 AM)

I know there were American convoys to Java, but I cannot find any information about Dutch convoys to Java between Dec 7, 1941 and the start of the Japanese invasion of Java. The Dutch government was in exile in London, the Dutch continental industry lost to the Germans. Does that mean Java was resupplied with British equipment from London or British colonies (Ceylon, India etc.) or the Dutch only had their pre-war stocks of tankettes, armored cars and army guns?

Also, there is HI and LI on Java. Were any factories on Java involved in military production (machine guns, 75mm guns etc)?

Thanks



wdolson -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 11:58:47 AM)

The Dutch OOB was mostly pre-war equipment. In late 1940 or early 1941 they saw the handwriting on the wall and knew war with Japan was coming. They searched the world for suppliers and the British didn't have much to spare. The US was about the only game in town, so they placed some fairly large orders for American aircraft. The US aircraft industry was struggling to expand the US military as well as supply Britain, so there were some delays until the end of 1941. The first aircraft had arrived in Australia, but hadn't been delivered yet when the war broke out. Some of the equipment made it to the DEI, but some got pinched in Australia (like a bunch of B-25s). Some other aircraft were lost with ship sinkings, the Langley being the best known.

I don't believe the DEI had much in the way of armaments factories. There was no need for them before the Netherlands was overrun by the Germans in 1940. Most people thought the Germans would leave the Netherlands alone like they did in WWI, so there were few contingency plans for running the colonies with the home country occupied. I suspect most of the limited industry in the DEI was oil field related and possibly some minor ship repair industry (machine shops to make some parts locally when merchant ships needed work).

Some was probably converted to make things like ammunition, especially small arms ammunition when the Netherlands fell, but they had a very small base to work with. The DEI was a big resource colony with a fairly small white, Dutch administration and military controlling a very large population of natives who were poorly educated and didn't really want them there to begin with.

Bill



m10bob -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 1:18:55 PM)

These may be helpful?

http://ww2db.com/country/dutch_east_indies


http://dutcheastindies.webs.com/

[image]local://upfiles/7909/6DD659CEFFFB4A45A7581778D66AC774.jpg[/image]



Anthropoid -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 1:52:25 PM)

Interesting stuff Bob.

quote:

The islands were the Netherland's main source of raw materials; very little industry was developed in the Dutch East Indies. In the 1900s the Dutch began to implement better flood control, education, and other programs to help the colonial subjects, but ultimately these programs were not effective. As main the interest for the Dutch colonial administration for the colony was trade, the Dutch language was never forced upon the local population; instead, the popular Riau dialect of Malay language was adopted as the official language so that trade would not be hindered


Clearly the Dutch colonial officials did not enjoy the insights of having played Civilization.



Dutch_slith -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 2:16:23 PM)

Braat Metalworks at Soerabaia (Overvalwagen)
Ammunition Factory at Bandoeng

Anything else came from abroad



Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 2:23:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Dutch OOB was mostly pre-war equipment. In late 1940 or early 1941 they saw the handwriting on the wall and knew war with Japan was coming. They searched the world for suppliers and the British didn't have much to spare. The US was about the only game in town, so they placed some fairly large orders for American aircraft. The US aircraft industry was struggling to expand the US military as well as supply Britain, so there were some delays until the end of 1941. The first aircraft had arrived in Australia, but hadn't been delivered yet when the war broke out. Some of the equipment made it to the DEI, but some got pinched in Australia (like a bunch of B-25s). Some other aircraft were lost with ship sinkings, the Langley being the best known.

I don't believe the DEI had much in the way of armaments factories. There was no need for them before the Netherlands was overrun by the Germans in 1940. Most people thought the Germans would leave the Netherlands alone like they did in WWI, so there were few contingency plans for running the colonies with the home country occupied. I suspect most of the limited industry in the DEI was oil field related and possibly some minor ship repair industry (machine shops to make some parts locally when merchant ships needed work).

Some was probably converted to make things like ammunition, especially small arms ammunition when the Netherlands fell, but they had a very small base to work with. The DEI was a big resource colony with a fairly small white, Dutch administration and military controlling a very large population of natives who were poorly educated and didn't really want them there to begin with.

Bill


I don't Believe there were any a/c destined for Dutch use on the Langley. Otherwise, I think you are right on. They also received some PBY's before and after
the war in the East started. The British tried to lay their hand on these, proclaiming to need them more than the Dutch, which the Dutch refused. In the end I
believe they transferred five of them to the USN as they lacked pilots. Their Hawk 75 fighters were also diverted to the Dutch East Indies after the German
invasion of the Netherlands.

Fred




Yaab -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 2:24:42 PM)

Thanks you for your feedback.

So far, I have used Java as a place to feed US army in the Phillipines. Ship supplies from Sorebaja to Manila, while new supply ships from Ceylon to Batavia, while Ceylon is fed by India/Cape Town. But is just too abstract, and I want to play somewhat more realistically, without the Commonwealth supplies magically used by the Dutch.

Harald, thanks for the tip on the Bandoeng ammo factory.



Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:04:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thanks you for your feedback.

So far, I have used Java as a place to feed US army in the Phillipines. Ship supplies from Sorebaja to Manila, while new supply ships from Ceylon to Batavia, while Ceylon is fed by India/Cape Town. But is just too abstract, and I want to play somewhat more realistically, without the Commonwealth supplies magically used by the Dutch.

Harald, thanks for the tip on the Bandoeng ammo factory.



Hi, Yaab - I don't really know how the game works as of yet - so far I'm just studying it. But, there were ships that got through from Australia, if not to
Luzon so to Mindanao and Cebu. One even passed North of New Guinea, entering the Philippines from the east. If you want to be realistic you could also sneak
along the Western side of Papua. Even if the Japanese took Ambon and Menado quite early they didn't jump over to Papua untill May. I would think that more
realistic than passing between Borneo and Celebes or through the central Moluccans. Just my opinion...[:)]

Fred





m10bob -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:08:14 PM)

IMHO, (and that of millions of former G.I.'s), the best thing to come from Java is "Reis Taffel", a fantastic 20 dish concoction which fills an entire picnic sized table with everything from BBQ pork and beef, to shrimp toast,chicken, and just about anything you might imagine. You feel like a kid lost in a toy store when it arrives!!

Seriously the Langley WAS headed for Java as Bill sez but I am not sure who was to fly them.
The Nederlanders knew how to fly the Brewsters as well as the Finns, and Geoff Fisken of New Zealand was also a Brewster ace, so you cannot discount even THAT plane..
This was his Brewster.



[image]local://upfiles/7909/126A5BA2D21B4503A6F1B36949555AB4.jpg[/image]



Anthropoid -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:19:32 PM)

Against the AI in WiTP, I seem to recall pretty routinely holding out in one more strategic locations in DEI into at least autumn 1942, so I was surprised to read this:

quote:

The Dutch ground forces, though slightly better armed than their counterparts in Europe during the German invasion in 1940, were unable to stop the Japanese invasion and surrendered on 8 Mar 1942. This ended 300 years of Dutch influence in the South Pacific.


With my first ever PBEM turn one coming to me any time now, I'm curious: how rare is it that an allied player (in a PBEM) manages to hold on to strategic locations in DEI, Malaysia or Philippines for longer times?



crsutton -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:25:14 PM)

The Dutch colonial system mirrored the other European colonial systems where the colonies were viewed as a source of raw material to be exploited but not encouraged to be a source of major manufacturing. The economic model is that the colonies would provide the raw stuff to the parent nation who would then sell back manufactured goods to the colonies-making lots of money in the process and protecting the manufacturing base in the home country. Thus the establishment of major manufacturing was not encouraged in the DEI or in any European colonies of the day. Many colonial powers instituted laws or heavy tax penalties to discourage the growth of manufacturing. This was the colonial model and had not changed for hundreds of years. One of the key reasons why the American colonies broke away from England.

Once the line to Holland was severed, the DEI was pretty much defenseless.



m10bob -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:28:25 PM)

Not so off topic...This is what the Langley looked like on her final mission.
Some SCUBA crews playground now..

[image]local://upfiles/7909/84EB907DA91146C29096A889434D5BAC.jpg[/image]



Yaab -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:29:32 PM)

I meant I can bring TONS of supply to Java from Ceylon/India/Australia in a very short time,while at the same time move thousands of supplies from Java to Manila, but I went off the beaten track to explore a more historical avenue of approach, and make the game a bit challenging for myself. Would Australian supply magically turn itself into Overlawagens and 8cm Bofors guns once on Java, just to mutate later at Sorebaja docks into a 75mm GMC AFV or 37mm canister ammo boxes bound for Manila? In game - yes, in real life - no.

Java has a so-so supply production, and I was wandering if the supply had been boosted by some external Dutch convoys after Dec 7, 1941. Is seems there weren't any, and the Dutch (unlike Commonwealth nations who can fall on UK/convoys to meet their supply needs) have no additional sources of Dutch-produced supply. Thus, any additional supply that comes to Java has to arrive from USA/Commonwealth with the caveat that USA/Commonwealth units must come along to use this supply. I hope to achieve a more realistic, slower-paced game and the last stand at Bandoeng.



crsutton -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:30:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Not so off topic...This is what the Langley looked like on her final mission.
Some SCUBA crews playground now..

[image]local://upfiles/7909/84EB907DA91146C29096A889434D5BAC.jpg[/image]



I count 25 P40s on the deck alone. Damn, I really could use those fighters right now!



jwolf -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:35:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

With my first ever PBEM turn one coming to me any time now, I'm curious: how rare is it that an allied player (in a PBEM) manages to hold on to strategic locations in DEI, Malaysia or Philippines for longer times?


I don't know, but it seems routine in AARs I have read that the Allied player still holds something in DEI in April or even May. In my game, however, I am likely to set a record in the other direction. [:o]



m10bob -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 3:45:54 PM)

I generally hang on to Padang the whole time..It makes a great base to harrass the enemy till you can srt retaking soil.



Anthropoid -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 4:25:25 PM)

Yeah Padang, Sibolga, even Benkoelen and Sabang . . . did the Japanese actually overrun these locations? Or for that matter, _all_ of Java? Or was it more a matter of the Japanese having taken certain key strategic locations like Soerbaja, Batavia, Balikpapin, Tarakan, Makassar, etc. and so the Dutch just surrendered?



Jim D Burns -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 5:03:42 PM)

The Dutch also purchased a lot of tanks from the US, not just aircraft. Here's a good site covering all/most of the different tanks they used.

http://www.overvalwagen.com/tanks.html

This page talks about the Braat Metalwork’s in Surabaya that produced the indigenous armored cars, so there is definitely an armaments industry on the island:

http://www.overvalwagen.com/overval2.html

I think the game may be missing these AT guns lol:



Jim



[image]local://upfiles/5815/55A28A59B36F4A91A86EF9EDF243EF15.jpg[/image]



Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 5:31:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

IMHO, (and that of millions of former G.I.'s), the best thing to come from Java is "Reis Taffel", a fantastic 20 dish concoction which fills an entire picnic sized table with everything from BBQ pork and beef, to shrimp toast,chicken, and just about anything you might imagine. You feel like a kid lost in a toy store when it arrives!!

Seriously the Langley WAS headed for Java as Bill sez but I am not sure who was to fly them.
The Nederlanders knew how to fly the Brewsters as well as the Finns, and Geoff Fisken of New Zealand was also a Brewster ace, so you cannot discount even THAT plane..
This was his Brewster.


They also flew the Hawk 75 - the export version of the P-36, so they could probably have converted to the P-40's onboard the Langley quite fast even if the P-36
was an easier (better) plane to fly. And I don't mean the Hawk-version flown by the Dutch, they were equipped with the unreliable (in fighter use) Wright Cyclone
engine. However, I mean to have read that the planes came with US pilots, some of them on a paralell ship.

Fred




Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 5:34:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Not so off topic...This is what the Langley looked like on her final mission.
Some SCUBA crews playground now..



I count 25 P40s on the deck alone. Damn, I really could use those fighters right now!


Actually, I believe there were more than 30 P-40's on Langley.

Fred





Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 5:45:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah Padang, Sibolga, even Benkoelen and Sabang . . . did the Japanese actually overrun these locations? Or for that matter, _all_ of Java? Or was it more a matter of the Japanese having taken certain key strategic locations like Soerbaja, Batavia, Balikpapin, Tarakan, Makassar, etc. and so the Dutch just surrendered?


More "a matter of" I think is OK to say...[:)]

Fred





crsutton -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 6:04:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

With my first ever PBEM turn one coming to me any time now, I'm curious: how rare is it that an allied player (in a PBEM) manages to hold on to strategic locations in DEI, Malaysia or Philippines for longer times?


I don't know, but it seems routine in AARs I have read that the Allied player still holds something in DEI in April or even May. In my game, however, I am likely to set a record in the other direction. [:o]




It depends on your opponent. A competent (experienced) Japanese player should have have all three locations cleared out by the end of April. Maybe with a little mopping up to do. If they know their business, you won't be able to prevent it.



warspite1 -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 6:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Seriously the Langley WAS headed for Java as Bill sez but I am not sure who was to fly them.

warspite1

According to Rising Sun, Falling Skies the decision on what to send where was changed and changed back again but it seems that:

Freighter Sea Witch had 27 crated P-40's aboard
USS Langley had c.32 ready-to-fly P-40's aboard
These ships were ordered to Java.

The men of the US 13th and 33rd Pursuit Squadrons would be tasked with flying the aircraft when they reached the island.



HansBolter -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 6:38:25 PM)

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.



Symon -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 6:56:11 PM)

Were there Dutch reinforcements? - No.

Were there any local sources? Harald Velemans makes it clear - basically No.

What you see is what you get.



warspite1 -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 6:59:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.
warspite1

Hans, again using Rising Sun, Falling skies as the source. In the book it is suggested that the US thought that reinforcing the NEI was a waste of resources once Singapore had fallen. Maybe that thinking is involved in the AI actions?



duettoalfa -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 7:29:41 PM)

I never lost java or sumatra in the 4 GC I started (and never finished maybe because I never lost the DEI). But most probably I was playing against unexperienced jap players.



m10bob -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/16/2015 7:31:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Were there Dutch reinforcements? - No.

Were there any local sources? Harald Velemans makes it clear - basically No.

What you see is what you get.



As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..



bradfordkay -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/17/2015 3:16:29 AM)

"Would Australian supply magically turn itself into Overlawagens and 8cm Bofors guns once on Java, just to mutate later at Sorebaja docks into a 75mm GMC AFV or 37mm canister ammo boxes bound for Manila? In game - yes, in real life - no. "

In the game specific weapons have a pool, so Australian supply will not turn into extra Dutch weapons that were not historically available. It will turn into ammunition for those weapons, but not the weapons themselves - so the game isn't as far off as some people seem to think.



crsutton -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/17/2015 3:27:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.


Actually when the game was new fully half to 2/3rds of the Dutch units could be bought out. Problem was too many players were just Sir Robinning and pulling as many units out to OZ as they can. Especially the valuable base forces. It was decided to restrict them to stop this from taking place. As it would not really have happened in the actual war. Now virtually all are white restricted and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.



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