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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942?

 
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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/20/2015 10:41:19 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan


Jim, I'm not arguing with you, and I realize you are saying what if, but...

There are two things wrong with that assesment:

1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).



Why does everyone always seem to operate under the assumption that the game is only played PBEM?

Alfred has made the point on many occasions that the vast majority of game play is against the AI.

I pointed out above that it is quite easy to facilitate the survival of nearly the entire Dutch force, albeit while sacrificing most of their territory.

There will be many, many games played wherein the Dutch survive.

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/20/2015 4:17:38 PM   
Symon


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No one makes that assumption, Hans. The game postures the Dutch in a certain way. It does not compel an outcome; whether you play AI or PBEM. It requires intelligence to make the outcome worthwhile.

The developers didn’t position the game for AI or PBEM play. They made the editor for people who wanted to play a different paradigm. They made the game to kinda/sorta flow with the imperatives of the early Pacific War. Obviously, gamer weenies can break the bank. So, “what?” we should make the game so that little weenies can get their rocks off?

And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno. I am not a FB. I find your comments offensive. I want them stopped.

Ciao. JWE


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/20/2015 5:29:15 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

No one makes that assumption, Hans. The game postures the Dutch in a certain way. It does not compel an outcome; whether you play AI or PBEM. It requires intelligence to make the outcome worthwhile.

The developers didn’t position the game for AI or PBEM play. They made the editor for people who wanted to play a different paradigm. They made the game to kinda/sorta flow with the imperatives of the early Pacific War. Obviously, gamer weenies can break the bank. So, “what?” we should make the game so that little weenies can get their rocks off?

And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno. I am not a FB. I find your comments offensive. I want them stopped.

Ciao. JWE



Then you are going to have to get me banned.

I would venture to guess there are more people than me who would like to get some of your offensive comments stopped as well JWE.

However, I really don't see anything productive in getting taking this little spat any further so hows about we both just act like grown ups and drop it?

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Post #: 63
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/20/2015 10:49:59 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan


Jim, I'm not arguing with you, and I realize you are saying what if, but...

There are two things wrong with that assesment:

1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).



Why does everyone always seem to operate under the assumption that the game is only played PBEM?

Alfred has made the point on many occasions that the vast majority of game play is against the AI.

I pointed out above that it is quite easy to facilitate the survival of nearly the entire Dutch force, albeit while sacrificing most of their territory.

There will be many, many games played wherein the Dutch survive.


Hey, Hans I didn't say anything about AI or PBEM. I was just trying to point out that IMO I don't think the Japanese can afford not to take the DEI. It seems to me it just makes an uphill struggle more difficult.


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Post #: 64
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 12:32:47 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. Jim


Is there a way to play the game as if the DEI pulled out of, or never entered into, the ABDA cooperation, IOW, upheld normal relations with Japan?
The plot would be like this: The allies pushed for boycot of Japan, the DEI authorities didn't like it, they feared a Japanese attack and made a secret treaty
with Japan to stay neutral - and no allied forces in DEI. Japan attacked US and British territory and continued the import of POL products from the DEI. No
destroyed or damaged industrial facilities in DEI.

Japan didn't have to use any military Resources in DEI, OTH hand, no Japanese troops on DEI soil. When the allies were chased away, the Aussies were requested to
leave Ambon and Timor by the Dutch - business as usual. How much would this delay the Allied comeback?

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 3/21/2015 1:34:46 PM >


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 12:55:40 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. Jim


Is there a way to play the game as if the DEI pulled out of, or never entered into, the ABDA cooperation, IOW, upheld normal relations with Japan?
The plot would be like this: The allies pushed for boycot of Japan, the DEI authorities didn't like it, they feared a Japanese attack and made a secret treaty
with Japan to stay neutral - and no allied forces in DEI. Japan attacked US and British territory and continued the import of POL products from the DEI. No
destroyed or damaged industrial facilities in DEI.

Japan didn't have to use any military Resources in DEI, OTH hand, no Japanese troops on DEI soil. When the allies were chased away, the Aussies were requested to
leave Ambon and Timor by the Dutch - business as usual. How much would this delay the Allied comeback?

Fred

warspite1

How likely would this scenario be? I mean with The Netherlands under Nazi occupation, how keen were the Colonials in NEI keen to get into bed with Germany's allies and in so doing, really cheese off President Roosevelt?

Interesting question and would be very interested to hear views on this?


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 3:05:15 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How likely would this scenario be?


Had Dirk Jan de Geer had his way this scenario is far more likely than you might think. From Encyclopedia Britannica entry:

quote:

Dirk Jan de Geer, (born Dec. 14, 1870, Groningen, Neth.—died Nov. 28, 1960, Soest), conservative statesman and prime minister of the Netherlands (1926–29, 1939–40) who was disgraced for attempting to negotiate a peace settlement between Great Britain and Nazi Germany in 1940.
After receiving his doctorate in law in 1895, de Geer worked as a journalist and acted as town councillor of Rotterdam (1901–07). He served as a Christian Historical member of Parliament (1907–21, 1933–39), minister of finance (1921–23, 1929–33, 1939–40), and minister of the interior (1925–26). He continued his second term as prime minister in London after the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940.
De Geer’s abortive attempt to mediate between Great Britain and Germany following the collapse of France in June 1940 was disavowed by Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and her cabinet (in exile in England), and he resigned on Sept. 3, 1940. He was then entrusted with a mission to the Dutch East Indies but instead returned to the Netherlands and was denounced on a Netherlands government-in-exile broadcast (Radio Orange) from London on Feb. 6, 1941. For his mediation efforts of 1940, he was in 1947 dismissed from his post as minister of state, fined 20,000 guilders, and sentenced to one year’s imprisonment. The prison sentence was suspended because of his poor health and advanced age.


Wiki gives a bit more detail on his actions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Jan_de_Geer

Jim



< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 3/21/2015 4:11:46 PM >


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 4:07:40 PM   
Anthropoid


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Seems unlikely as hell to me. Why would the Japanese accept to trade for the stuff. They were convinced they were the masters of Asia and they would be unlikely to not seek to annex DEI I'd say.

Moreover, look how far Jan de Geer's efforts got him: fined and jailed. It seems possible enough for an alterative history mod or game spinoff. But certainl out of scope for the base game.

Getting back to the 'debate' about why KNIL Army forces have little capacity to expand or replace beyond what they start with: I think what these guys are trying to tell you Hans and Jim is that, there simply were not more Dutch men or equipment to be had and what is represented in game is already a slight exaggeration.

Netherlands was liberated from the Nazis in what? 1944?

I suppose it might not be unreasonable to think that, the base game could have included data to represent an eventuality in which the DEI had held out else was not under Japanese occupation at some point in 1944 when Netherlands is liberated from Nazi occupation and that some time after that there is available some trickle of Dutch manpower and lendlease materials. I would guess the amount of manpower would be rather low however, and given what a tiny difference it would seem to make in the war in the Pacific at that point, it seems a bit of an inconseqeuntial thing.

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 4:35:31 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How likely would this scenario be?


Had Dirk Jan de Geer had his way this scenario is far more likely than you might think. From Encyclopedia Britannica entry:

Jim

That's an interesting premise. Not saying it would have gone anywhere, but it is interesting to ponder.

Feed forward to the original question: Just how much would the Dutch in the DEI buy into this? How would this increase organization and equipment pools? How would lend-lease equipment be available to an avowed non-combatant? and just how would that lend-lease equipment get there? Did I miss anything? Oh, yeah, I forgot, the statwacht and landwacht are going back home, and the over-50 KNIL reservists get a pass. That's more than 30% of your ground strength.

Woof! Politicians truly believe they know better than any of us about what's good for us. ... um ... er ... hold that thought. Ciao. JWE

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 7:08:06 PM   
Leandros


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While anyone can write or discuss what they like concerning my suggestion to this scenario, my questions were:

1. Can the game be set up for such a scenario, and
2. In what way would that eventually influence on the allieds come-back?

Fred




< Message edited by Leandros -- 3/21/2015 8:08:51 PM >

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 9:14:32 PM   
Jim D Burns


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I don’t think it could work very well given the fact we basically have a 2 sided game engine. You’d need a third neutral side that could somehow cooperate with the other combatants lending them resources and oil. That said, I’m not familiar enough with the inner workings of the game engine nor can I say for certain the editor can’t make it happen somehow.

The only thing that might work would be to remove the Dutch bases from map and then have a generic base that represented the trade available to each side. How you’d make those bases non-attackable is beyond me, house rules would probably be needed unless they were treated like the off-map bases only accessible to one side somehow.

If you could somehow make these off-map bases work, you then run into the problem of neutral shipping. Would Dutch ships be allowed to haul supplies/oil/resources and if so would they be subject to attack?

Jim


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 9:19:16 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

That's an interesting premise. Not saying it would have gone anywhere, but it is interesting to ponder.


Well he was Prime Minister, so if the queen's ship had been sunk as she fled Holland or if she had been a weaker monarch you never know. I doubt the government in exile could have stopped him without the queen's authority. Whether or not the Dutch people went along is another thing, my guess is some would have followed him but most probably not. I'm thinking about Vichy France, my guess is we would have seen a similar divide between peoples loyalties among the Dutch.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 3/21/2015 10:19:58 PM >


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 9:58:46 PM   
Symon


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Jeez Louize Jim. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. This stuff is really cool but could easily devolve into a deep delve into never-never land. The forum wouldn't quite get it. No harm, no foul, it's actually been a lot of fun. It's just that this kind of discussion doesn't work on this forum

If you want, send me a PM. I'll send you my biz email and others from folks who's job it is/was to think of these things.

Ciao. JWE

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/21/2015 11:04:09 PM   
Jim D Burns


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LOL I'm not arguing to include this lol. I was just continuing the discussion on the tangent it took. No way would I advocate this needs to be in the game.

Jim

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 5:37:43 AM   
Anthropoid


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It could conceivably make for a very interesting mod though, maybe even on the order of a War Plan Orange scale spinnoff game?

Assuming that sort of thing is still acceptable to those who own the game.

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 8:49:29 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..

It seems as if the Filipinos were much more loyal to the US than the Indonesians to The Netherlands. Maybe because The Philippines had already been promised
their independence.

Fred

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 11:02:05 AM   
wdolson

 

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The Dutch had done some nasty things in the DEI. I think they improved a bit by the 20th century, but there was a lot of resentment in the native population. The Philippines had only been in US hands for 40 years at that point, and while the US wasn't perfect, it was generally a better colonial master than the Spanish. And as you point out, the US had promised the Philippines full independence by 1945. Steps in that direction were being taken before the war started.

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 2:04:17 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..

It seems as if the Filipinos were much more loyal to the US than the Indonesians to The Netherlands. Maybe because The Philippines had already been promised
their independence.

Fred


The Filipinos deemed themselves "Americans" for the most part, BEFORE the war, and they loved MacArthur.
God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started..

One of my relatives married a Guamanian lady whose uncle was murdered by the Japanese over the hiding of the American sailor "Tweed".
A movie was made about his adventures, and contrary to the movie, the Guamanian s continued to hide him, as they too felt themselves "Americans", but in reality they thought Tweed a coward for not surrendering himself while many Guamanian s were tortured or murdered for hiding him.
To this day, many in the Pacific, (especially Hawaiians)feel all "outsiders" are "howlies", (foreigners) who only came for what they can, (perceived colonialism).
This is the view a future president took when he moved to Hawaii from where he lived, in Indonesia, (the old DEI we are discussing...true haters of anything smacking of colonialism....
To their credit, the Filipinos never felt this way as they remembered the U.S. as the military who freed them from an oppressive Spanish government.
**This comment is NOT meant to be a political slant, merely an expression of how folks in the Pacific were motivated,(or not) to fight an armed invader..as an invader, or a "liberator"..


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 2:18:29 PM   
m10bob


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"And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno."


We have all seen these accusations over the years, and I feel the Devs have had plenty of time to explain pretty much every consideration of this game.

The size of the conflict is huge to begin with, but to make the thing playable,KNOWING THE HISTORICAL OUTCOME), had to have been a very daunting task.
Gettysburg,(IMHO) might have gone either way. If it had gone to the South, who knows what outcome might have come from it...but in 1941, Japan attacked because they felt their military was about as strong as it was ever going to get..Ergo, they had to conquer as much as possible IMMEDIATELY. They knew from day one time was against them, and only a brash and deliberate universal show of "Bushido" would allow victory.

Matrix games sells...games..How many people would buy an expensive game, let alone play it...if both sides did not have some kind of chance to be victorious.?

I do not feel it makes one a "fanboy" of either side to want a challenging GAME that can hold interest and challenge both players...(even if one is the AI)..

I am also a fan of the AI..I have seen Chess games with an AI which were challenging.
With WITP or any of its' offspring, we have a similar war game, but with thousands upon thousands of pawns and knights to move across a third of the world.......

Just my humble albeit prejudiced opinion.

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 5:09:54 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill
warspite1

Why do you say that wdolson? Given what happened to all other colonial empires post war - either by force or by sensible management by the colonial power - I can see no possible scenario whereby the NEI would not have broken free of their Dutch rulers.

For the Dutch to remain as colonial masters of modern-day Indonesia would have meant the population - and it is a huge one - remaining completely apathetic to what was going on all around them in Malaysia/Singapore, Vietnam, India, The Philippines, Burma, Sri Lanka..... not to mention just about every corner of Africa.

As soon as the natives began to stir, the Dutch - even if they were tempted initially to refuse to let go - would have been pariahs if they maintained colonial rule by what would surely require ever increasing force.

Sorry but that comment makes no sense to me.


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 5:24:07 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill
warspite1

Why do you say that wdolson? Given what happened to all other colonial empires post war - either by force or by sensible management by the colonial power - I can see no possible scenario whereby the NEI would not have broken free of their Dutch rulers.

For the Dutch to remain as colonial masters of modern-day Indonesia would have meant the population - and it is a huge one - remaining completely apathetic to what was going on all around them in Malaysia/Singapore, Vietnam, India, The Philippines, Burma, Sri Lanka..... not to mention just about every corner of Africa.

As soon as the natives began to stir, the Dutch - even if they were tempted initially to refuse to let go - would have been pariahs if they maintained colonial rule by what would surely require ever increasing force.

Sorry but that comment makes no sense to me.




To play devil's advocate...The Canadians have not revolted??

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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 5:28:31 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill
warspite1

Why do you say that wdolson? Given what happened to all other colonial empires post war - either by force or by sensible management by the colonial power - I can see no possible scenario whereby the NEI would not have broken free of their Dutch rulers.

For the Dutch to remain as colonial masters of modern-day Indonesia would have meant the population - and it is a huge one - remaining completely apathetic to what was going on all around them in Malaysia/Singapore, Vietnam, India, The Philippines, Burma, Sri Lanka..... not to mention just about every corner of Africa.

As soon as the natives began to stir, the Dutch - even if they were tempted initially to refuse to let go - would have been pariahs if they maintained colonial rule by what would surely require ever increasing force.

Sorry but that comment makes no sense to me.



To play devil's advocate...The Canadians have not revolted??
warspite1

Not in any way shape or form even remotely similar. Canada was a Dominion (the oldest in fact). She now sits within the Commonwealth of nations - a sovereign nation totally free of the UK. She chooses to be part of the Commonwealth and chooses to have Queen Elizabeth as her head of state.

Canada - and the other Dominions - were all colonies at one time, but they became semi-autonomous Dominions and then ultimtely completely separate sovereign nations. Are you saying Canada is a colony of the UK??!!!!


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/22/2015 7:15:10 PM >


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RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 5:41:13 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started.

They were deployed - and used.........from where do you have the funny notion that they weren't...?

Fred




< Message edited by Leandros -- 3/22/2015 7:01:25 PM >


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Post #: 83
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:03:56 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started.

They were deployed - and used.........from where do you have that funny notion that they weren't...?

Fred

warspite1

I posted a question on this a while back but no one responded - so perhaps you can shed some light on it?

In a number of books - inc Rising Sun, Falling Skies - the story seems to be that MacArthur suffered some kind of breakdown and went missing in the crucial hours after the Japanese started the war. As a result much of the US aircraft were destroyed on the ground; he also apparently refused to authorise the bombing of Japanese airfields.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/22/2015 7:04:53 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Leandros)
Post #: 84
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:31:59 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started.

They were deployed - and used.........from where do you have that funny notion that they weren't...?

Fred

warspite1

I posted a question on this a while back but no one responded - so perhaps you can shed some light on it?

In a number of books - inc Rising Sun, Falling Skies - the story seems to be that MacArthur suffered some kind of breakdown and went missing in the crucial hours after the Japanese started the war. As a result much of the US aircraft were destroyed on the ground; he also apparently refused to authorise the bombing of Japanese airfields.


MacArthur's reaction sounds strangely similar to Stalin's on June 22.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 85
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:35:51 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started.

They were deployed - and used.........from where do you have that funny notion that they weren't...?

Fred

warspite1

I posted a question on this a while back but no one responded - so perhaps you can shed some light on it?

In a number of books - inc Rising Sun, Falling Skies - the story seems to be that MacArthur suffered some kind of breakdown and went missing in the crucial hours after the Japanese started the war. As a result much of the US aircraft were destroyed on the ground; he also apparently refused to authorise the bombing of Japanese airfields.




This is correct..The disaster was so terrible a true hero, Colin P Kelly (a real hero), had hsi true accomplishments "embellished" by the press and rather than holding his B17 up allowing his crew to parachute, the tale was told that in his last moments he sunk the Japanese battleship Haruna.

The public believed it..they NEEDED some heroes right then, with so many of our so-called military "leaders" faltering and stumbling..
In spite of orders to disperse the very air force Mac had fought so hard to assemble..he had them tightly parked,wingtip to wingtip, (even on at least one golf course)..All the same, hours after Pearl was reported bombed...in a whole different time zone....with Mac's commanders BEGGING to be given orders, Mac refused to release the planes.
This is documented on so many levels I find it somewhat incredible anyone on THIS forum would not be aware of it??

Where did I get this notion?..
Damn near any history book on the subject indicts MacArthur on this failure alone.

FWIW...I admire MacArthur..(my dad loved him in Korea)....but we all make mistakes..

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/macarthursfailures.aspx

"On December 8th the air raid sirens began blowing. After several minutes we heard the Japs had bombed Pearl Harbor. Expecting to be hit next the Cavite Navy Yard and all the airfields in the area were immediately put on alert and air raid drills were practiced night and day.[40]

Although with all the warnings of an imminent attack, the actual Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor had taken nearly all Americans by total surprise. None the least was MacArthur, who when informed of the attack was reported to have exclaimed, "Pearl Harbor! It should be our strongest point."[41] As a seasoned commander and ex-Chief of Staff of the United States Army, MacArthur should have been one of the most stalwarts of the stalwarts in the Philippines. Instead, as Costello states, MacArthur was in an "apparent cataleptic state," and that "The shock of events seemed to have clouded his [MacArthur's] judgment, leading him to believe, according to President Quezon, ‘that the Philippines would remain neutral and would not be attacked by the Japanese.'"[42] Morris supports this when he relates that, "An air of unreality gripped MacArthur at his headquarters in the ‘House on the Wall,'"[43] a penthouse on top of the palatial Manila Hotel built for him by Philippine President Manuel Quezon.[44]

Unlike MacArthur, however, Major General Lewis H. Brereton, Commander United States Far East Air Force, was quick to react. Upon hearing the news of the Pearl Harbor attack, he immediately put his planes on alert and headed for the Manila Hotel. Arriving at MacArthur's headquarters at approximately 5:00 a.m., Brereton requested permission to launch a preemptive strike against the known concentration of Japanese aircraft on the island of Formosa.[45] Unfortunately, the shock and confusion that reigned in MacArthur's headquarters would prove fatal to Brereton's air forces, and the Philippines. As Costello relates, "a fatal paralysis gripped MacArthur's command that morning. His Chief of Staff [General Richard Sutherland] insisted on a preliminary reconnaissance mission because there was little information about what they were going to find to bomb on Formosa."[46]

However, half an hour later MacArthur received a cable from Washington with directions to implement the Rainbow 5 War Plan at once.[47] This should have made it clear to MacArthur that his duty was to attack the Japanese, and General Brereton's B-17s were MacArthur's means of doing so. But Brereton's request was refused. As Major John Mamerow of the Adjutant General's Office, Philippine Department, recalls:

Major General Brereton arrived from MacArthur's headquarters and gave us as much of the story about the bombing at Pearl Harbor as he knew….The next thing I knew we got a call from General Sutherland,…saying the Formosa plan had been disapproved, but to make sure our airplanes were secure.[48]

Meanwhile, the Japanese Navy's 11th Air Fleet and Army's 5th Air Group aircraft, which were planned to have been striking MacArthur's air force, were grounded on Formosa due to ground fog.[49]

Brereton, however, did not give up. According to Morris, at approximately 7:15 a.m., after two hours of waiting for MacArthur to order the attack, Brerenton again went to General Sutherland's office with a prepared strike mission. "After a few minutes, the Chief of Staff came out of the general's office [MacArthur's], shut the door quietly behind him, and turned toward Brereton. ‘The general says "No,"' he said. ‘We must not make the first overt act.'"[50] Apparently, MacArthur's state of shock and cataleptic condition hampered him from realizing that the Japanese had already made the first overt act when they attacked Pearl Harbor.

After receiving a telephone call from General Arnold in Washington telling him not to get his planes caught on the ground like the planes at Pearl Harbor had been, at 9:00 a.m., Brereton scrambled 36 P-40s and all but one of his B-17s to circle the skies aimlessly. It wasn't until forty-five minutes later, at approximately 9:45 a.m., that Brereton finally received phone calls from Generals Sutherland and MacArthur instructing him to send a photo-reconnaissance flight over Formosa and, if the aerial pictures identified targets, a bombing raid later that afternoon. To accomplish this, Brereton ordered his planes to land, refuel, arm, and prepare for the assault. In the meantime, the aircrews rushed to the respective chow halls for a quick meal prior to launching the attack on Formosa.[51]

It was at this vulnerable time, at a little after 12:00 noon on 8 December, approximately eight hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor and after the weather front over Formosa had cleared, that the same Formosa based Japanese aircraft that MacArthur refused to give Brereton permission to bomb, attacked the Philippines. As Private First Class Victor Mapes of the 14th Bombardment Squadron stationed at Clark Field recalls,

About noon the B-17s came in to re-gas. They lined them up on the runway and the crews cut out for chow. I was listening in the barracks to a very loquacious radio commentator…when all of a sudden he said that Clark Field was being bombed….some of us went outside to the back of the barracks. Coming in over the mountains from the China Sea, up in the silvery clouds, were these two beautiful "V" formations of twenty-seven planes each….We had our gas masks with us and were trying to get them on when the bombs began walking up the runway, like a big giant stepping down the line….The fighters came in next and their machine guns were going through the air, cutting all around….Everything was a holocaust. It seemed like it went on forever.[52]

In a matter of minutes, like at Hawaii earlier in the day, nearly all of the American combat aircraft stationed at Clark Field, the vast majority of the aircraft then stationed in the Philippines, were caught on the ground parked close to each other and destroyed in the first waves of Japanese air strikes, along with many of the aircraft crewmen. Although the pilots of the few surviving American aircraft made gallant attempts with some effect, the Japanese aircraft greatly outnumbered and out-machined the overwhelmed American pilots, leaving the skies over the Philippine Islands in nearly uncontested control of the Japanese Air Forces.[53] MacArthur's refusal to allow Brereton to attack the Japanese air bases on Formosa directly led to the American-Filipino loss of control of the skies over the Philippines. "

< Message edited by m10bob -- 3/22/2015 7:48:02 PM >


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 86
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:48:01 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I posted a question on this a while back but no one responded - so perhaps you can shed some light on it?

In a number of books - inc Rising Sun, Falling Skies - the story seems to be that MacArthur suffered some kind of breakdown and went missing in the crucial hours after the Japanese started the war. As a result much of the US aircraft were destroyed on the ground; he also apparently refused to authorise the bombing of Japanese airfields.


If your question was about MacArthur's alleged nervous breakdown I can understand the no-response, because that worn-out myth, true or false, made no difference for
the outcome of what happened on Luzon. Not to say that he couldn't have had a nervous breakdown, but it made no difference. Only his fighters could have made a
difference and they were up flying all morning.

Fred




_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 87
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:54:17 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In spite of orders to disperse the very air force Mac had fought so hard to assemble..he had them tightly parked,wingtip to wingtip, at Clark Field,

You mean.....MacArthur was down on the airfield marshalling the planes into their parking positions....?

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 88
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:55:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I posted a question on this a while back but no one responded - so perhaps you can shed some light on it?

In a number of books - inc Rising Sun, Falling Skies - the story seems to be that MacArthur suffered some kind of breakdown and went missing in the crucial hours after the Japanese started the war. As a result much of the US aircraft were destroyed on the ground; he also apparently refused to authorise the bombing of Japanese airfields.


If your question was about MacArthur's alleged nervous breakdown I can understand the no-response, because that worn-out myth, true or false, made no difference for
the outcome of what happened on Luzon. Not to say that he couldn't have had a nervous breakdown, but it made no difference. Only his fighters could have made a
difference and they were up flying all morning.

Fred


warspite1

Wow! what a truly rubbish response .

I am trying to learn about the Pacific theatre - and to that end I have read as much as I can on this in the last few years, and also frequent this site to further that knowledge - as there is a wealth of knowledge here.

I asked a perfectly polite question. I did not take any position and have no axe to grind. Having heard this from one source in particular (and a couple of others too) I wondered to what extent this was true and if anyone had any further information on it.

I did not question whether it made any difference to the outcome of the Battle for the Philippines, why did you add that?

But if you want to adopt such a surperior tone and decide that some peoples questions are not worthy of a response then fine - nice attitude .






< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/22/2015 8:00:33 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Leandros)
Post #: 89
RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? - 3/22/2015 6:56:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In spite of orders to disperse the very air force Mac had fought so hard to assemble..he had them tightly parked,wingtip to wingtip, at Clark Field,

You mean.....MacArthur was down on the airfield marshalling the planes into their parking positions....?

Fred

warspite1

Mmmmm reasoned debate is not really your thing is it?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Leandros)
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