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Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 1:16:57 PM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		In 1.08.02 I am trying to airdrop a Soviet Airborne unit. It is located in a hex with an active air base that is in supply on a railline. There are two transport units of 18 Li-2 each. The para brigade is Ready and is stacked in the same hex.

The manual gives a rather complicated set of instructions.
1. In movement mode, select the unit to be dropped. (OK, done)
2. Immediately select air transport mode. (OK, done)
3. The air base will be bordered blue. (yup, it is), with the airborne unit bordered yellow. (yup, it is).
4. Shift-left click on target hex (yup, and it's 13 hexes from the airbase, btw).
5. The 'Pick Air Units for Mission' window will display. NOPE! This doesn't happen. Nothing happens. The process doesn't work and I can't figure out why. Not enough Transports? Timing? Bug?

Would appreciate some advice on this. Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 2:07:50 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		theres a few other rules which are not immediately clear.

one is the unit you are trying to drop has to have at least 50 experience. I think this is not on average (ie as you see in the commanders report) but for each element type (ie you need to look at the detail for each unit). I've been caught out by this in the past, esp for that cluster of Airborne brigades that are deployed at the start of 1942.

This is probably the most unintuitive bit of WiTE, but one other idea is to click on a hex next to the airbase, that will help resolve if you have any/sufficient aircraft



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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 2:35:07 PM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		very helpful, thanks. One of the two available brigades has 51 or better exp for each of its elements (overall 55 according to Comm. Screen).

Can't tell about the adjacent hex trick but a total of 36 Li-2 may not be enough for a unit with 2,648 men (which is the best non-partisan unit in my entire Red Army, based on morale and experience, btw). It'd be nice to know the minimum aircraft needed before embarking on this process I think.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 3:58:30 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Another rule to remember is you need to be dropping within 8 hexes of a supplied unit

its not easy but you can work out if you have enough capacity.

To work out supply, if you look at the air unit will show you max load. Looking at my current game Li2 have a max load of 6617 per plane. So a 20 plane unit has around 13,000 capacity and you need at least 4 in the unit (to meet the 2000 minimum capacity rule - 16.3.5)

the problem is the cost is at the element level, so for eg a 41 rifle/sapper squad has a load cost of 6 (& I have 85 in a full strength airborne brigade). So that is 180*6 ~ 1100 and the rest seems to come to around 8-900. So that implies an airborne brigade needs about 2000 capacity but you should see the actual load cost of a unit when you select the air transport routine

The whole process is complex, but I fear can no longer be changed. Doing airdrops in WiTW is both easier to set up and more realistically constrained

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 7:02:17 PM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		The total "load" of all elements of my brigade is 1944. Even one of the Li-2 units carries a load of 119,106 (18 planes), so if I'm following you correctly, this should be more than enough. There is a "mystery" stat on the brigade called "Transport Cost." Its value is 404, and I assume that has to do with rail or ship movement and not Air Transport Mode, although the terminology is confusing.

The target hex is 5 hexes from the nearest supplied Soviet, tracing through unoccupied (but enemy controlled) German hexes. If I just trace the absolute shortest path, it's 4 hexes to my supplied unit.

It's blizzard weather ... would that be an obstacle?

In short, I still can't figure out how this works, but I sure know a lot more about it now!

< Message edited by Longshanks -- 3/9/2015 8:02:38 PM >

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 10:08:29 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Longshanks

The total "load" of all elements of my brigade is 1944. Even one of the Li-2 units carries a load of 119,106 (18 planes), so if I'm following you correctly, this should be more than enough. There is a "mystery" stat on the brigade called "Transport Cost." Its value is 404, and I assume that has to do with rail or ship movement and not Air Transport Mode, although the terminology is confusing.

The target hex is 5 hexes from the nearest supplied Soviet, tracing through unoccupied (but enemy controlled) German hexes. If I just trace the absolute shortest path, it's 4 hexes to my supplied unit.

It's blizzard weather ... would that be an obstacle?

In short, I still can't figure out how this works, but I sure know a lot more about it now!


yep, thats why I make so little use of this option. Some people seem to have really mastered the secret but I find it so hit and miss I'd never want to rely on it working

and, you're right, just to confuse. Transport cost has nothing to do with air transport but is the cost in shipping or rail pts to move the unit that way

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/9/2015 10:56:45 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		The process of making the drop changed from the original version, maybe in the 1.06 patch family I vaguely recall. Could be very wrong on that.

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Post #: 7
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 2:18:41 AM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		You are correct, sir! Changed quite a bit. Apparently this is in the updated manual, which I thought I was reading. I'll try it tomorrow.

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Post #: 8
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 1:46:07 PM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline 		For those that may be interested in this, here are the steps that were revised in 1.06:
1) go to Air Transport mode
2) left click on the hex containing the airbase and airborne unit(s)
3) verify the units to be dropped are selected
4) shift-left click on a hex near the airfield (an air transport icon appears)
5) this will bring up the Air Units Mission Window (this doesn't happen)
6) close this window to see the highlighted hexes where the units can be dropped
7) shift-left click on a hex where the unit is to be dropped
8) this will bring up the Air Units Mission Window

This process does not work in 1.08.02, at least on my machine.

However, if I left click on the icon that appeared in step 4, hexes do highlight. Unfortunately, they are only hexes that are where I already have units. This seems to be a result of being in air transport mode rather than anything having to do with an air drop.

If anybody can get air drops to work in 1.08.02 I'd sure like to see how they did it. Otherwise, it's bugged.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 2:02:19 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Will try to make a drop from my old save and will report the results.

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Post #: 10
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:33:48 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Setup at start of turn:




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Post #: 11
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:35:10 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Made sure all stacks were deselected.
Clicked Air Transport mode button.
Clicked stack with airbase and brigade.
Clicked on airbase to deselect.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by morvael -- 3/10/2015 6:35:22 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:36:52 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I admit I couldn't get the "preview" thing to work, so I went a direct route.

Shift-Clicked on target hex. The tooltip for it shown "AIRCRAFT IN RANGE".
Strike list appeared.




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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:37:42 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I selected a lot of groups to be sure brigade will be dropped in one sortie (reduces losses).




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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:38:15 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		When I clicked LAUNCH the mission was executed, and a report appeared:




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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:38:51 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The unit was in place:




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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:43:51 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Ok, on a second try I managed to see the highlight. I didn't expect it to be covering so large an area. After shift-clicking near airbase and closing the strike window by using [X] button I got:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 17
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:44:45 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Shift-left clicking again near Legnitz made the strike list window appear again, and I was able to make the drop as before:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 18
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:45:38 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		...so the procedure works as described. Maybe you have problems with having not enough transport units, too low supply, too weak airborne unit, railhead too far away?

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Post #: 19
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 5:47:36 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		By the way it can be seen that at least one thing is broken - the battle report numbers do not add up (and on the battle report details tab all values are 0). But I guess we can live with that when the drops themselves are working and the final results are not crazy.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 3/10/2015 6:25:08 PM   
Longshanks

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 1/15/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

...so the procedure works as described. Maybe you have problems with having not enough transport units, too low supply, too weak airborne unit, railhead too far away?


1. I may not have enough transport units, however if I add up the total "load" of all the elements of the brigade I have a great deal of excess capacity on the 36 Li-2s in the hex.
2. It's sitting on a functional railline with the HQ adjacent about 10 hexes in the rear of the front.
3. It's possible it's too weak I guess. Define "too weak." Last turn it was a 6-16 with every element 51 experience or better, but the unit is inexplicably much weaker this turn, with some elements a paltry 14 experience. Not sure why, the unit didn't move, wasn't attacked and remains in supply. Stupid political officers!

Thanks for the attention Morvael.

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Post #: 21
RE: Airborne Ops - 3/13/2015 11:30:44 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Another thing to remember is that a division cannot be dropped ( too big ) so you are limited to brigades.

Soviet units undergo TOE changes a lot; that brigade probably swapped in some new elements and they tend to take a big experience drop from what the replaced pieces were at.

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Post #: 22
RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 7:41:26 PM   
cyqq

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 2/13/2007
Status: offline 		Do German para units do airdrops? I have broken the German para division into regiments, followed all the updated steps and can't get the regiment to drop. The airbase is within 1 mp and hex of the rail head. Experience of the regiment is high, lots of MPs left on them. JU52s haven't been used this turn. The only possible problem that I can think of is that moral of the JU52s is 45, although the interface will allow me to drop supplies/fuel. What am I missing?? Thanks for any help you can provide.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 9:18:39 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyqq

Do German para units do airdrops? I have broken the German para division into regiments, followed all the updated steps and can't get the regiment to drop. The airbase is within 1 mp and hex of the rail head. Experience of the regiment is high, lots of MPs left on them. JU52s haven't been used this turn. The only possible problem that I can think of is that moral of the JU52s is 45, although the interface will allow me to drop supplies/fuel. What am I missing?? Thanks for any help you can provide.


It an Air Landing unit or para?


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RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 9:20:07 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
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From: Poland
Status: offline 		I think units brigade-size and smaller that are not divided bigger units can be dropped. Which means no drops for the Germans.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 9:56:07 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
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Status: offline 		Haven't tried latest version but German regiments always used to drop. Airlanding doesn't though. Think it was an infantry division trained to travel in aircraft rather than a glider or para unit.

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RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 10:24:39 PM   
cyqq

 

Posts: 34
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Status: offline 		It is a para unit: subunit 1/7th Flieger Division. I am playing the version which has been in effect since the May 2012 update (i.e. not the new beta).

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RE: Airborne Ops - 4/9/2015 10:42:38 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		There are two German airborne infantry units in 1941- 22 Air Landing belonging to 11 Armee and 7 Flieger, which makes a brief appearance in late summer/autumn. The former does not do drops, that latter does, or certainly used to, don't see why it shouldn't still.

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