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Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/5/2015 11:18:21 PM

Slyguy3129

Posts: 31
Joined: 5/16/2009
Status: offline

I need some help with manage my CVs. I've been playing off and on for some years now, but I can't seem to get past this wall and obviously it keeps me from really getting into it. Basically, I have a blast, up to the point that my carriers (US) met other carriers (Usually Japan), then I have no more carriers, and there is no more point.

No matter what I try, same altitude changing altitude my daunts can't hit the ocean, my torp bombers never hit anything, and my stupid escorts if they show up, show up in such small numbers, and just fly into the enemy and die.

Had this happen during my current hundreth replaying of the Guadalacanal Scen. 22nd, or 23rd I start hearing Send main body enemy cv found ect. Perfect timing as I have just sent my new CVE Long Island to reinforce my carrier fleets just off Lunga. With 16 extra Wildcats to watch the fleets, I'm bound to outnumber any Zeros sent to me. Next day, all seems well, air strikes, 1 billion Vals 1 billion Kates 1 billion and 1 Zeros, 1 Wildcat. Ok I kid out of frustration, it was more like 40 Vals 20 someodd Kates and 30 someodd Zeros, to my 20 someodd Wildcats. Problem number one. I have one carrier with 16 Wildcats set at 100 CAP, that should be 16. Then I have 3 big carrier with 30 someodd Wildcats apiece set at 50 CAP, thats 15 apiece from those 3. I should have no less than 46 Wildcats over my 4 carriers. Why is it that I only have 20. Naturally the ones I have are dead shortly. Somehow the Japanese only manage to hit one carrier once. I praise Jebus. New raid, 15 Avengers 25 Dauntlesess 34 Wildcats, well, where are the rest of my attack aircraft, but after so many Zeros that attacked me, there should be hardly any left, 48 Zeros. What the f.... Well ok maybe I can get lucky, some will get through. My Wildcats proceed to do nothing, Zeros Diving in shooting, not a single shot from my Cats, for whatever reason though the Zeros were dropping left and right, engine this, oil that, turns away, control not responsive, but not from gunfire. Eventually of course all my Cats are dead some 10 Zeros left. They shoot up 3/4 of my attack craft before I get there, and then the ones that do, can't hit the ocean if they landed in it. Somehow I managed one 1 bomb hit on each carrier and one torpedo hit. Well, they didn't die for practically nothing, just almost nothing. PM Airstrikes, oh Godda... 30 Vals, 15 Kates, 40 Zeros, 5 Cats. You have got to be kidding me. A few hits on my carrier again and a few more on the CVE Long Island. The Japanese must be blind today. Next raid, 5 Daunt, 30 Zeros..........Next Raid 5 Avengers 30 Zeros........Next Raid 12 Daut, 30 Zeros........ and maybe a few more times of that combonation. Then the turn ended.

Some how I'm only in the high to mid 20ies across the board on my carriers, so they are limping back to Sydney. But that is where I decided enough for today. I really enjoy this game, but then there comes times like that where you just slap a brick wall, and it stops being fun, all those hours of previous work, for absolutely nothing. Its why I haven't been able to get into the GC, I've played till around mid 42 in a few. I can manage supplies barely, China almost, but when it comes to carriers, and getting my aircraft to link up and attack, it is hopeless. The manual doesn't help either.

So, can any of you sage admirals help me here? What are some tips on managing your CVs. What effects do disruption and fatigue have on pilots ect. This is the most expensive and time consuming game I have ever purchased, and when I get into it, I love it, up until something like this happens, and I remember why I don't play it. Please help me.

Post #: 1

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/5/2015 11:30:29 PM

cdnice

Posts: 179
Joined: 5/7/2009
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

It would help if you could post the combat report.

More knowledgeable than I will post many possibilities for you but I will ask one of the questions. What range do you have the cap set at? for the CVE protecting the force I would think you would want those planes set at zero so they stay in the hex with the ships.

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Post #: 2

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/5/2015 11:31:22 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

Well first of all stop play a scenario and play a campaign game

Scenario's really do not do much to help you in a GC as they are too restrictive on what you can and cannot do. And in some cases teach you 'bad' ways to do things that will not help in a GC.

Just a suggestion

(in reply to Slyguy3129)

Post #: 3

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/5/2015 11:50:23 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

Remember what the manual said about CAP:
"Note that only 1/3rd of the assigned CAP will be airborne at any one time. Once an air strike is detected, the remaining 2/3rd will scramble and join the already airborne portion. However, unless given enough detection time, not all the CAP aircraft will necessarily meet the initial strike."

Try setting CAP at 100% with 0 range

Try setting different squadrons at different altitudes (6K, 10K, 15K)

Then pray

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 5/6/2015 12:48:46 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 4

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 12:08:16 AM

bristolduke

Posts: 109
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline

I don't consider myself experienced, but what I notice is what the rule and Jorge state. Do you watch the Combat? That will help.

You will see 20 CAP in the first screen, but you will see that number increase as the combat proceeds, may fluctuate up and down. Which represents the additional CAP being scrambled.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 5

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 12:57:39 AM

Slyguy3129

Posts: 31
Joined: 5/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cdnice

It would help if you could post the combat report.

More knowledgeable than I will post many possibilities for you but I will ask one of the questions. What range do you have the cap set at? for the CVE protecting the force I would think you would want those planes set at zero so they stay in the hex with the ships.

I did not think of range. I think I had them all at max range thinking the further out the better. I'll try that in my next play through. I'll also try and remember to post some combat reports.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Remember what the manual said about CAP:
"Note that only 1/3rd of the assigned CAP will be airborne at any one time. Once an air strike is detected, the remaining 2/3rd will scramble and join the already airborne portion. However, unless given enough detection time, not all the CAP aircraft will necessarily meet the initial strike."

Try setting CAP at 100% with 0 range

Try setting different squadrons at different altitudes (6K, 10K, 15K)

Then pray

I missed that. I will increase my caps across the board now. I thought setting them at the altitude or slightly above where the raid was coming from was how you did it. I'll try alternating them to. Maybe the airspace to to heavy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bristolduke

I don't consider myself experienced, but what I notice is what the rule and Jorge state. Do you watch the Combat? That will help.

You will see 20 CAP in the first screen, but you will see that number increase as the combat proceeds, may fluctuate up and down. Which represents the additional CAP being scrambled.

Yes I watch the battles unfold. Thats how I know when my Wildcats fly in ahead of my Daunts and do nothing. Zero diving on Wildcat: Zero Firing at Wildcat Range 4.3.2.1 WildCat Damaged Wildcats Spins away on fire/Heads for Clouds/Dive to the Deck on all of them save maybe 2 or 3. I don't have time to train them more but they have 55-60 experience. Yes I see the message saying CAP scrambled and an increase in numbers.

Thanks for the quick replies gentlemen. I will try your suggestions, and pray.

(in reply to bristolduke)

Post #: 6

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 2:47:00 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slyguy3129

quote:

ORIGINAL: cdnice

It would help if you could post the combat report.

More knowledgeable than I will post many possibilities for you but I will ask one of the questions. What range do you have the cap set at? for the CVE protecting the force I would think you would want those planes set at zero so they stay in the hex with the ships.

I did not think of range. I think I had them all at max range thinking the further out the better. I'll try that in my next play through. I'll also try and remember to post some combat reports.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Remember what the manual said about CAP:
"Note that only 1/3rd of the assigned CAP will be airborne at any one time. Once an air strike is detected, the remaining 2/3rd will scramble and join the already airborne portion. However, unless given enough detection time, not all the CAP aircraft will necessarily meet the initial strike."

Try setting CAP at 100% with 0 range

Try setting different squadrons at different altitudes (6K, 10K, 15K)

Then pray

I missed that. I will increase my caps across the board now. I thought setting them at the altitude or slightly above where the raid was coming from was how you did it. I'll try alternating them to. Maybe the airspace to to heavy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bristolduke

I don't consider myself experienced, but what I notice is what the rule and Jorge state. Do you watch the Combat? That will help.

You will see 20 CAP in the first screen, but you will see that number increase as the combat proceeds, may fluctuate up and down. Which represents the additional CAP being scrambled.

Yes I watch the battles unfold. Thats how I know when my Wildcats fly in ahead of my Daunts and do nothing. Zero diving on Wildcat: Zero Firing at Wildcat Range 4.3.2.1 WildCat Damaged Wildcats Spins away on fire/Heads for Clouds/Dive to the Deck on all of them save maybe 2 or 3. I don't have time to train them more but they have 55-60 experience. Yes I see the message saying CAP scrambled and an increase in numbers.

Thanks for the quick replies gentlemen. I will try your suggestions, and pray.

The responses are piecemeal and will fail to produce good results. For example, if you up your CAP to 100% or set it to zero range you will have no escorts and almost certainly no Dauntless/Avengers will launch at all. At that point you will be looking back fondly to when you did get 15 Dauntless to launch.

You should read this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3219921&mpage=1&key=carrier%2Ccoordination�

Short of getting a dev from the air team commenting, you won't find a better commentator on air matters than LoBaron. Always worthwhile to search his posts on air issues.

From the paucity of hard data you have provided, it is obvious you need to re-examine your expectations. For example you mention your pilots have 55-60% experience and you don't have time to up skill them. Here you are making the common mistake of highlighting experience. In your situation that is a mistake as I keep on pointing out in the forum. It is the relevant pilot skills which dominate the combat. A 55% experience pilot with only a 55% air skill flying a Wildcat in mid 1942 is going to perform poorly against a KB pilot flying a Zero. The enemy pilot will be much better trained and is flying a better performing plane. This is all before taking into account other player set variables which almost certainly are already very heavily skewed to favour the enemy.

Alfred

(in reply to Slyguy3129)

Post #: 7

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 6:50:01 AM

CaptBeefheart

Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline

Maybe you are doing this, but I would save the game one or two days before the CV battle and then try different things from that save. That way you can conveniently test all sorts of things (different altitudes; some F4F squadrons on 100% CAP, some on zero; all CVs in one TF; CVs in single-CV TFs; LRCAP from Lunga on your CV TF; different TF leaders etc.).

What Alfred said as well.

Cheers,
CC

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 8

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 8:06:13 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

To avoid misunderstandings, when I said 100% CAP, 0 range; it meant all-or-nothing; those squadrons designated to do CAP at 100% at 0 range. Those designated to escort, 0% CAP, range = same as the strike force

If you are playing scenario #4 Guadalcanal:
your starting point in terms of Wildcat pilots and squadron leader quality is good; this at least for the squadrons based on your 3 "fleet" carriers (Saratoga, Enterprise, Wasp). Notwithstanding the fact that Zeros are better, your position here is as strong as it can be, with several "TRACOM quality" pilots

TF leaders on the other hand are really bad, and I bet that is the main cause for your problems, I would merge all fleet carriers under RADM Spruance ASAP

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)

Post #: 9

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 9:08:17 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

quote:

TF leaders on the other hand are really bad,

For the Allies the default selection is nearly always a fellow who couldn't induce a fish to go swimming.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 10

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/6/2015 2:42:14 PM

pelthunter

Posts: 84
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline

Autoassign system seems to protect your better commanders. If you want a good commander you need to do it manually.

And about that "not having time for training". Either you train your crews or you lose your carriers, simple as that. If you are playing Allied side, time is on your side.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 11

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/7/2015 12:54:25 PM

wneumann

Posts: 3768
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: just beyond the outskirts of Margaritaville
Status: offline

quote:

From the paucity of hard data you have provided, it is obvious you need to re-examine your expectations. For example you mention your pilots have 55-60% experience and you don't have time to up skill them. Here you are making the common mistake of highlighting experience. In your situation that is a mistake as I keep on pointing out in the forum. It is the relevant pilot skills which dominate the combat. A 55% experience pilot with only a 55% air skill flying a Wildcat in mid 1942 is going to perform poorly against a KB pilot flying a Zero. The enemy pilot will be much better trained and is flying a better performing plane. This is all before taking into account other player set variables which almost certainly are already very heavily skewed to favour the enemy. Alfred

+1 to Alfred's remarks. Scenario or campaign... carrier actions in 1942 (which it appears you're playing in) often turn out badly for the Allied player. Until the US carrier fleet has improved plane types (F6F Hellcats instead of Wildcats, TBF Avengers instead of TBD's), better torpedoes for carrier planes (not the high dud rate torpedoes of 1942) and properly trained and experienced pilots, the odds are usually against US carriers. What you have on your flight decks (pilot & plane quality) is considerably more important than how many flight decks you have and the capacity of those flight decks (though this is not unimportant). In a scenario, you have to go with what you get. In a campaign, a considerable amount of preparation (pilot training, improved plane types, more carriers entering the game) is necessary before US carriers can be sent out with a reasonable possibility of success.

(in reply to pelthunter)

Post #: 12

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/9/2015 2:07:44 AM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline

Some great stuff above, but a few comments I didn't see or I could elaborate on [to hear myself talk].

DL. I don't know what scouting arrangements you had during the turn - but DL plays a huge roll in CV (and all) engagements. There are several ways to raise the DL of an enemy TF (see 10.1.1.1 of the manual), but the most common is spotting by subs and search A/C. Each spotting event will raise the DL only 1 (or 2 if an attack is made) - but a DL of 1 or 2 is not very good. You want to have a LOT of search A/C (supplement with land based PBYs) so that multiple A/C "see" the target and raise the DL. Don't forget the night searches.

I like Jorge's comment about setting cap at 100% and 0 range - and his further clarification about having some set for escort. The only further comment I would make is I always set my escorting squadrons to 10% CAP. If a strike doesn't go, I want them participating in defense! (Squadrons with a CAP percentage greater then 0 will attempt to put all unused A/C (A/C not on other missions, rest) into the fight - though they have to pass a dice roll (or rolls) to participate... hence the 100% for those squadrons designated for CAP.)

I didn't see any mention - but make sure your CVs are not in a base hex. CVs in a base hex only launch half (I think it's half) their aircraft for CAP or strikes. Supplementing CAP with LBA is always good, but use LRCAP with your TF as the target (must be in normal range, not extended range). Don't rely on this though as you will be disappointed with the numbers that show up usually. It will help though.

TF commanders was mentioned - and it is critical. Try to get their "air" value in the mid to upper 80s. I don't even look at any other value for the TF commander. For the ship commanders I focus on naval skill (helps avoid bombs). I don't care about the air skill of the CV commander at all.

(in reply to wneumann)

Post #: 13

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/9/2015 9:39:27 AM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

One tip on going all or nothing on CAP.. What happens when the designated CAP carriers deck closes due to damage?

No CAP....

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 5/9/2015 10:37:58 AM >

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
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(in reply to Slyguy3129)

Post #: 14

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/9/2015 4:29:48 PM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

One tip on going all or nothing on CAP.. What happens when the designated CAP carriers deck closes due to damage?

No CAP....

All CVs have 1 VF on CAP (except possibly 1). Escort is provided by a second VF or VMF and the CVLs. Make room by shrinking the VBs down to 24-27 A/C.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)

Post #: 15

RE: Need Assistance with Carrier/Naval Operations - 5/9/2015 4:54:01 PM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

If I have to engage enemy carriers the amount of fighters on escort duty would roughly be equal amount or a bit more then the expected CAP. This ensures that the majority of attack aircraft will be able to start the attack run. Anything more is a waste...

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
� Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to tiemanjw)

Post #: 16