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RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic ai formation behavior!

 
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RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 9:31:09 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		This is WAR gentlemen. Mess with one of my favorite games and you've got yourselves a BIG one.

Actually you can gripe all you want. It's been griped about before and as you see it's been around a long time and still exists and is still a GREAT game.

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it.

(in reply to roy64)
Post #: 61
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:15:12 PM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it.


One of the thing I disliked about Histwar was this kind of attitude on their forums. It's depressing to see it here too.

More illuminating, however, is a comment by one of the developers over on the Norbsoft SOWWL forum. He doesn't like the way brigade formations often look either, and has stated his intention to improve it as much as possible.

The corollary of your advice, then, seems to be that he should stop playing his own game...

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 62
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:48:15 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE.

There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.

(in reply to pjsynnott)
Post #: 63
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:55:03 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Wrong!! cause it's been that way since the first 2nd Manassas and it's still around and so is Norb. Going on what now Norb 8 or 9 years?

EDIT: Chris you would know better than I how long the Take Command series has been around. Isn't it around 8 or 9 years now?


Who cares if it was 8, 9, 20 years? The fact that they can sell a game with this goofy behavior for any period only demonstrates that unfortunately it will probably never be fixed and thus appeal to a wider audience.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/20/2015 1:09:56 AM >

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 64
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/19/2015 11:58:05 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.


I hope you don't think you're doing the game or the developers any favors with your ridiculous comments? Instead of buying the game "later" now I'm thinking "never". I doubt I'm the only "malcontent".

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 65
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 12:03:41 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		Spot on.I this guy thinks he's doing the game a favour, he's sadly deluded.

And I do like this game.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 66
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 12:04:57 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE.


http://www.norbsoftdev.net/forum/96-discussion/68575-battalions-marching-through-each-other#68611

Of course, if Norb himself disapproves, I'm sure you'll post the relevant link.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 67
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 1:03:09 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: psynnott


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE.


http://www.norbsoftdev.net/forum/96-discussion/68575-battalions-marching-through-each-other#68611

Of course, if Norb himself disapproves, I'm sure you'll post the relevant link.

Lol gunfreak is a USER and MITRA is a moderator/tester (loot at his tag and read) not designer or developer. Try again. MITRA doesn't even speak good engrish to understand him.

The closest thing to a designer developer over there talking about this is RebBugler. This is what he says:

quote:

RebBugler

NOW ONLINE
NSD Designer

Posts: 2597

Hey D, glad you're helping out here. If you haven't, add drawtiles=0 to your sowwl.ini file to observe the tiles. For folks interested, some other debug lines:

[debug]
alphaomega=0
drawtiles=0
dbglvl=2
benchmark=0
showfortmen=0
mplog=1
noai=0

Regarding the tiles, yes, they are the key component to pathing, both for GB and WL. They are responsible for keeping troops from overlapping and crossing over one another. However, as this thread and screenshots point out they are not perfect. If you turn on (drawtiles=1) tiling you can see the following:

1) when engagements happen tiles turn on and create a firing zone, however, tiles only block flags from crossing these firing fronts, so units in line marching parallel to a unit engaged will have their flank extended into the fire zone. IOW, flag is obeying tiles, but exposed flank isn't.

2) tiles turn on for movement thus preventing collisions between moving units

At this point in time I prefer to not state my preferences or make promises. Just trying to lay out the facts as I see them, provide some tools so folks can have a deeper look, and let everyone form their own opinions on how to better the game.

And lobby you may do...have at it.


See the underlined quote? I rest my case. When Norb jumps in there and says/promises things will be changed then I will believe.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 6/20/2015 2:08:03 AM >

(in reply to pjsynnott)
Post #: 68
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 1:06:37 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.


I hope you don't think you're doing the game or the developers any favors with your ridiculous comments? Instead of buying the game "later" now I'm thinking "never". I doubt I'm the only "malcontent".


you think "I" care if you buy the game. I wouldn't want to see your whiny whine in a multiplayer game. Thank goodness you and hopefully your hater friends here won't buy it. You're probably all griefers anyways and trolls of course.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 69
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 1:17:14 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


you think "I" care if you buy the game. I wouldn't want to see your whiny whine in a multiplayer game. Thank goodness you and hopefully your hater friends here won't buy it. You're probably all griefers anyways and trolls of course.


I've already bought it, and I do like it, but in your weird world view that makes me a "hater" too, I guess.

Night, night Taylor. You're not worth engaging with.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 70
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 2:36:45 AM   
RCHarmon


Posts: 322
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

Lets return to some civility. Lets let Norb and his team answer the questions and us who are supporters of the game not get into confrontations.

SOW Gettysburg has some tracking/ crowding issues. There are ways to work with it like giving a division or corp enough room to maneuver and operate. Not broken, but an affect of having thousands of troops in a small area. It's not just click "form" click "advance" click "charge". There is more to this game.

I'll admit that Waterloo is worse than Gettysburg in bunching up etc. I think there will be some simple changes that will make this better. I think you should make your suggestions known and see what can be done. I'm sure it will improve. And no matter what, if you don't give a unit enough room to operate then yes there will be problems.

(in reply to pjsynnott)
Post #: 71
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 4:32:56 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to RCHarmon)
Post #: 72
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 5:45:09 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

Yup, me too. And I'll tell all of my griefer and troll friends not to buy it either...

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/20/2015 6:48:56 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 73
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 6:36:43 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		I thought this fanboy / hater routine was for other forums?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 74
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 7:19:21 AM   
roy64


Posts: 246
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

This is WAR gentlemen. Mess with one of my favorite games and you've got yourselves a BIG one.

Actually you can gripe all you want. It's been griped about before and as you see it's been around a long time and still exists and is still a GREAT game.

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it.


This is exactly what I mean, it's just not needed.

This might become a great game in the future but at the moment it's broken. Until some of the problems are fixed I will not be playing it, instead I'll be going back to Scourge of War Gettysburg.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 75
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 7:47:40 AM   
RebBugler


Posts: 266
Joined: 9/20/2012
From: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Status: offline 		Well, wondering how this would play out. It was just too volatile to step in. Thought our supporters could see it through without an NSD rep weighing in, unfortunately the cons seemed to have prevailed, er, con meaning against purchase, don't want to misconstrue.

Sure, the game's not perfect, but we listen, and we're at version 1.0 with a whole new ballgame, called Waterloo. You don't think we'll take heed, and shore up some of the issues discussed here? We'd be foolish not to, at least for sure I'll let them be known. No guarantees anything discussed here can or will be addressed, but I'll put forth an effort and submit said issues for consideration. I don't code, I design within the established file system and report what I deem necessary for good gameplay and functioning.

The gentleman that berated NSD games of the past and continues to do so I believe to be unfair with the facts. Yes, the original MadMinute games had no pathing rules set in place, units would go anywhere and everywhere, without Take Command it was quite out of control. But Take Command worked, and NSD accumulated their fan base. With GB pathing was introduced, still not perfect, but based on pathing tiles it improved crowding and overlapping considerably. Now, with WL Norb has developed a new technique where troops march in place to avoid collisions, this works pretty well and along with more advanced tiling techniques the game has come a long way, but still not perfect.

As far as the infamous 'Conga' line, I see it maybe once a half hour, if at all. We've tried to flush it out but it persists, mainly for con fodder as it doesn't offend most folks, but does make the formation act crazy, for three seconds or so.

Guess I've said my piece. We've worked hard to release a solid, entertaining game representing the greatest battle of the Nap era. Whether you make the leap to join us on our quest to make it better is up to you, as the game will be molded by our community through feedback and mods, as have all NSD productions, past, present, and future.

Thanks for reading, and hopefully understanding, if ya got this far,

Randy Keen

< Message edited by RebBugler -- 6/20/2015 9:15:10 AM >

_____________________________

Designer - Scourge of War

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 76
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 7:55:12 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		@ Aurelian and 76mm, I think you'd be missing out by not getting it. The occasional formation oddities are only one aspect of the game. I'm discovering that there's a lot of depth in it. more that was hoping for, even.

(in reply to RebBugler)
Post #: 77
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 8:05:15 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: psynnott
@ Aurelian and 76mm, I think you'd be missing out by not getting it. The occasional formation oddities are only one aspect of the game. I'm discovering that there's a lot of depth in it. more that was hoping for, even.


Thanks. I was hoping for more intelligent discussion and less fanboi ranting on these issues, but c'est la vie (or c'est la guerre?). I was very much let down by Histwar and other recent games, so at this point I don't buy anything until I am pretty confident that a game is for me.

(in reply to pjsynnott)
Post #: 78
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 8:25:07 AM   
JamesLxx

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 12/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

You don't think we'll take heed, and shore up some of the issues discussed here? We'd be foolish not to, at least for sure I'll let them be know. No guarantees anything discussed here can or will be addressed, but I'll put forth an effort and submit said issues for consideration.


Thank you RebBugler.

That was the aim of my original post that started this thread entitled "Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic ai formation behaviour."

Case closed.

(in reply to RebBugler)
Post #: 79
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 8:27:56 AM   
pjsynnott


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I was very much let down by Histwar and other recent games, so at this point I don't buy anything until I am pretty confident that a game is for me.


After Histwar, I can completely understand your caution, but in my opinion at least, SOWWL is much better.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 80
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 8:33:36 AM   
mitra76

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 5/23/2011
Status: offline 		I agree with RCH, people please lower the tones of discussion. Personally, but I think all the team, I appreciate both the support posts than the critical posts.

My reply to Oho was a honest answer to a honest question: he asked for commitment on the problem and I replied positively, explaining the reasons why in GB the problem seems less stronger; like for the other gameplay suggestions\problems and new features we have in mind, we will continue to work for improve the game, 4 years of patch support for Gettysburg demonstrate this; we're not going to disappear to the Caraibi with your money :).

I can understand some of you can consider the various problems you signaled in these various threads essential or breaking the game and we respect your opinions; we're taking notes of all the negative feedbacks related to the gameplay not only of bugs, in order to face them too.




_____________________________

Visit my wargame blog: http://warforgame.blogspot.it/

(in reply to roy64)
Post #: 81
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 8:59:59 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

(in reply to mitra76)
Post #: 82
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 9:03:09 AM   
roy64


Posts: 246
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mitra76

I agree with RCH, people please lower the tones of discussion. Personally, but I think all the team, I appreciate both the support posts than the critical posts.

My reply to Oho was a honest answer to a honest question: he asked for commitment on the problem and I replied positively, explaining the reasons why in GB the problem seems less stronger; like for the other gameplay suggestions\problems and new features we have in mind, we will continue to work for improve the game, 4 years of patch support for Gettysburg demonstrate this; we're not going to disappear to the Caraibi with your money :).

I can understand some of you can consider the various problems you signaled in these various threads essential or breaking the game and we respect your opinions; we're taking notes of all the negative feedbacks related to the gameplay not only of bugs, in order to face them too.





I agree with your post.
When you start to iron out the problems I can see this is going to be a very good game, but lets face it, anyone who dares to report a problem or has been critical of this game so far, has instantly been attacked by other forum members. This does not look good on your company or encourage people to report bugs or problems.

Would I recommend the game as it is, yes I think I would. It still needs plenty of improvements but it's only going to get better.

(in reply to mitra76)
Post #: 83
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 9:11:01 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

What more can one say.....



warspite1

Looks like it was coded by Busby Berkeley.......


This is a real shame . Second only to WWII, the Napoleonic era is fascinating and Waterloo is such an interesting set-piece battle. I really want to get this game but the above puts me right off.

I will keep checking in to see if this can be fixed.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to JamesLxx)
Post #: 84
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 1:55:56 PM   
kg little mac

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 9/22/2012
Status: offline 		I've been playing the SOW series from the beginning.

The multi-player games are beyond tremendous.

The more you play, the easier it becomes to keep your troops in proper formations while moving.

I rarely play single player, but I know the ai often struggles moving its units without bunching and such.

But I think this game is at its best when you have a 5 on 5 or bigger multi-player games.

We've had 20+ player games at the GCM and they're fantastic. sow mp dot com

And the Kriegspiel group does fantastic multi-player HITS games. kriegsspiel dot forumotion dot net/

My opinion is that if people gave multi-player a try, they'd fall in love with this game.

Come join us sometime. All are welcome.




< Message edited by kg little mac -- 6/20/2015 3:41:33 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 85
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 3:28:14 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

Yup, me too. And I'll tell all of my griefer and troll friends not to buy it either...


I can put up with the formation oddities. I'm not a programmer. The best I ever did was to get one to count to 10. So I can't say if it's easy to fix, hard to fix, or not fixable.

But what I won't put up with is the grief I've been reading here. Don't really want a game that causes people to do that.

And I *like* Napoleonic games. Given a choice between say, Campaign Waterloo and Campaign Gettysburg, to play, it's the former. Every time. (Both are John Tiller games )

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 86
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 4:59:18 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kg little mac

I've been playing the SOW series from the beginning.

The multi-player games are beyond tremendous.

The more you play, the easier it becomes to keep your troops in proper formations while moving.

I rarely play single player, but I know the ai often struggles moving its units without bunching and such.

But I think this game is at its best when you have a 5 on 5 or bigger multi-player games.

We've had 20+ player games at the GCM and they're fantastic. sow mp dot com

And the Kriegspiel group does fantastic multi-player HITS games. kriegsspiel dot forumotion dot net/

My opinion is that if people gave multi-player a try, they'd fall in love with this game.

Come join us sometime. All are welcome.






Now we're talkin the good stuff.

(in reply to kg little mac)
Post #: 87
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 5:14:20 PM   
RCHarmon


Posts: 322
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

Yup, me too. And I'll tell all of my griefer and troll friends not to buy it either...


I can put up with the formation oddities. I'm not a programmer. The best I ever did was to get one to count to 10. So I can't say if it's easy to fix, hard to fix, or not fixable.

But what I won't put up with is the grief I've been reading here. Don't really want a game that causes people to do that.

And I *like* Napoleonic games. Given a choice between say, Campaign Waterloo and Campaign Gettysburg, to play, it's the former. Every time. (Both are John Tiller games )



Give me a break. What are you talking about "grief" ?????? Have you been harmed in some way because of a few comments??????? If you don't have all the facts, and you don't, it would be prudent to exercise a level of restraint before you make yourself out to be some kind of victim.


Some Sow players are a bit defensive. Does it matter that there is a large number of players who not only like SOW games, but are more than willing to step up and sing its praises?

I have played 100s of games.

http://www.sowmp.com/gcm/battles/?player=13


Do you think that we play and put up with some kind of circus game? Again, you don't have all the facts.

The player must learn how to operate his troops by keeping them in good order. It is a very playable and realistic game. It is not a table top game. Big difference here.

Waterloo needs some tweaks. Gettysburg is better (for now), but the tweaks will come and more smooth play will happen. There are new tactics that this game is bring forward. Give it a chance. It "is" a very playable game as is. Tweaks "will" make it better.


I highly endorse the game. If you like SOW GB you will Waterloo. The opposite is also true.


So forgive us for liking and promoting SOW.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 88
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 5:51:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

Yup, me too. And I'll tell all of my griefer and troll friends not to buy it either...


I can put up with the formation oddities. I'm not a programmer. The best I ever did was to get one to count to 10. So I can't say if it's easy to fix, hard to fix, or not fixable.

But what I won't put up with is the grief I've been reading here. Don't really want a game that causes people to do that.

And I *like* Napoleonic games. Given a choice between say, Campaign Waterloo and Campaign Gettysburg, to play, it's the former. Every time. (Both are John Tiller games )



Give me a break. What are you talking about "grief" ??????



I would say try reading the grief directed toward 76mm, but that is beyond you.

Promote it all you want. But obviously your nerve has been pained. Too bad too bad. Oh too bad. But take heart. You've confirmed the decision not to buy.


< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/20/2015 6:54:53 PM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to RCHarmon)
Post #: 89
RE: Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic a... - 6/20/2015 6:01:23 PM   
RCHarmon


Posts: 322
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline 		The post was meant for you. 76mm and his thoughts I respect. I can disagree with, but I respect. You used the word "grief" yourself. You should reread your own post.




And how many times are you "NOT" going to buy it?

< Message edited by RCH -- 6/20/2015 7:20:21 PM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 90
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