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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 12:09:59 PM

mind_messing

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Don't stake too much on AA. You have our Downfall game as some sort of a benchmark. Load that up as Japan and see the abundance of AA - it doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. At best, it will up his OPS losses, but don't expect it to do much more than force a rest of a turn or two between attacks.

What about night-time attacks on Hokkaido - have you considered shifting bombers to hit his airbases at night, simply to attrition his strength down some?

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 12:43:48 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Don't stake too much on AA. You have our Downfall game as some sort of a benchmark. Load that up as Japan and see the abundance of AA - it doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. At best, it will up his OPS losses, but don't expect it to do much more than force a rest of a turn or two between attacks.

What about night-time attacks on Hokkaido - have you considered shifting bombers to hit his airbases at night, simply to attrition his strength down some?

Oh, I am not staking a lot on it.

I think it is futile to think you can stop the destruction of Honshu, but as Japan you can slow it down and make it cost more.

AA + Radar + Night Fighters is the best way to slow it down and make it more expensive.

I have been night bombing Hokkaido since the beginning, very few hits and even less damaged planes, he has NF there, but I keep trying.

I should get to our turn finished this weekend, lots of clicks there too!

However off the Zoo today, some of my last outtings with my kids before the last one goes into the Corp of Cadets this summer. That takes a little precedence over WITP.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/19/2015 1:49:39 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 5:03:07 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Don't stake too much on AA. You have our Downfall game as some sort of a benchmark. Load that up as Japan and see the abundance of AA - it doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. At best, it will up his OPS losses, but don't expect it to do much more than force a rest of a turn or two between attacks.

What about night-time attacks on Hokkaido - have you considered shifting bombers to hit his airbases at night, simply to attrition his strength down some?

Although AA does not cause a lot of direct bomber losses ...I'm going to disagree with you on AA not being any value at this point ..

#1 -- The presence of AA keeps the bombers high .. that has many ramifications including decreased accuracy. No AA and the Allies can execute 3,000 foot bomb runs with much more damage.
#2 -- The Presence of AA alone affects accuracy ... I do not know the formula but I do notice hitting AA free targets has a much greater effect ..
#3 -- Besides operation losses -- wounded ducks have a probability of not making it back ...

In terms of keeping the IJ industry going AA is a platform to extend the time it takes to burn down the factories ..

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 5:31:51 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Don't stake too much on AA. You have our Downfall game as some sort of a benchmark. Load that up as Japan and see the abundance of AA - it doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. At best, it will up his OPS losses, but don't expect it to do much more than force a rest of a turn or two between attacks.

What about night-time attacks on Hokkaido - have you considered shifting bombers to hit his airbases at night, simply to attrition his strength down some?

Although AA does not cause a lot of direct bomber losses ...I'm going to disagree with you on AA not being any value at this point ..

In terms of keeping the IJ industry going AA is a platform to extend the time it takes to burn down the factories ..

The short and the long of it is that the best way to prevent Japans industry going up in flames is to interfere with the bombers in the air.

Flak will only keep the bombers high if the Allies find the losses at low altitude are too much to bear. Considering the extreme concentration of flak needed for that rate of attrition and the fact that the Allies can bring their medium bombers into play as well means the Allies can probably endure pretty heavy bomber losses.

As for flak affecting accuracy, I'd need to see the numbers.

About the best you can hope for with Japanese flak is to damage bombers so that they're down for a few days repair. Anything else, like outright destroying bombers, is merely an added bonus.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 6:06:37 PM

Lowpe

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I think the presence of flak does make bombers less accurate, no statistical analysis, just from watching lots of replays recently. Combined with fighters actually being present, which also makes bombers less accurate, it will reduce the number of hits substantially.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/19/2015 11:14:44 PM

Lowpe

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Turn is away, trying once again to nail the Deathstar...high and low plus surface ships. Maybe someday, the sun will come out and shine on the Empire once again!

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 3:58:25 AM

Sangeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Flak will only keep the bombers high if the Allies find the losses at low altitude are too much to bear. Considering the extreme concentration of flak needed for that rate of attrition and the fact that the Allies can bring their medium bombers into play as well means the Allies can probably endure pretty heavy bomber losses.

I disagree. You have to consider it from the Allied perspective. It often makes sense to fly higher to reduce losses simply because accuracy doesn't drop that much and I rather keep my bombers from getting damaged. In the end its accuracy x numbers that matter, not just accuracy. In a sustained bombing campaign if you fly higher you keep more planes operational. In my games I often fly at 15k feet because of flak damage. Even experimenting with some 20k bombing now that I'm still taking occasional losses at 15k feet. Though these are mostly for routine missions...if I'm going after something important I'll fly lower and accept higher losses.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:34:05 AM

Lowpe

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Feb 24, 1944

Southwest of Luzon, we dance with some Fletchers guarding the Deathstar...

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/20/2015 1:14:21 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:51:30 AM

Lowpe

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No surface engagements with the Deathstar, as it slips past us again.

Allied air power is attacking all over Northern Honshu...after the Japanese thrash two P38J Lightning Sweeps, bombers are spotted, low, 5000', heading for the airplane factories. Yikes!

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:53:49 AM

Lowpe

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Probably a decent days battle here.

Tabby?

Why in the world hit them early?

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 12:02:26 PM

Lowpe

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In the afternoon, the mandatory Jugs sweeps come in.

The Jacks bear the brunt of the initial dive, but then we start to get some counter dives in. This is probably about the best I can expect to get.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 12:19:06 PM

Lowpe

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I was hoping for more P38J losses, they pose a long range threat at Western Honshu, but overall I will take the day. Allied did nail industry in the eastern Honshu, but for the most part I have already written that off.

I should have had two strikes on the Deathstar, 50 Kamikaze Kates at 1000 feet, and 27 Helens at 30K. Not sure why they didn't fly, weather was iffy, and supply might have played a role in the Kate strike. Deathstar west of Mindanao.

According to my notes, the Allies have a total production of 100 P38J and 510 B24J thru the end of Feb, 1944.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 12:42:54 PM

Lowpe

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I may start putting the Oscars down at 5K here on the lesser AA defended bases.

There were three followup raids by B24Js (all low), one more P38J sweep, and then in the afternoon the Jugs sweeps. The final raid nails the Tabby factory, knocking it down to 1 point (out of 30). It doesn't take many B24Js to be devastating when bombing at 5K in this case I think it was 9 (and I managed to bring one down prior to release).

I have noticed the Jugs sweeps seem to be fairly common in the PM phase. Perhaps 10 to 15 percent of the time.

It is going to be a long 44, well until he invades of course.

I got most of the 19th Division back to Fusan today.

There were 3 P38 sweeps, although one was a fragment, and two Jugs sweeps. I noticed at least 3 other Jugs sweeps in eastern Honshu, so there are at least 5 full squadrons here. There is another at Guam, and at least 4 in Indochina.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/20/2015 2:09:14 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 1:03:36 PM

Lowpe

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Indochina...

Even with removing the vast majority of the AA, troops in jungle and jungle rough and urban hexes can stand up to the massive Allied bombing ok. Once the Allies get out into the open, it will become an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction.

The JR blocking positions have stymied the Allied advance: Bangkok/Moulmein road (two positions); Moulmein/Rahaeng position. I am holding off two to three times more Allied attackers here than I have defenders thanks to the terrain, dug in forts and lots of heavy artillery.

I would be looking at landing at Victoria Point if I were the Allies, from there he can threaten the rail line in two places.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/20/2015 2:13:21 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 1:41:55 PM

Lowpe

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This was the first day where the Jacks really got to fight in prolonged defensive battles against fighters and bombers. As expected they did well, but don't have the punch that the Tony or George has. Jacks damage, and can climb fast, but not enough cannons.

In April the next versions comes online, with more cannons and SR2 (woohoo!), and then she should really shine.

I was lukewarm about making the Tony, and Obvert convinced me to way back in late 1942. Boy, am I glad because nothing can stop the B24s like the Tony can. It is a must have plane.

In checking Tracker, I did destroy many more Lightnings, 20+ which seems more correct after having watched the replay. Feels good. I am sure something will happen to make me feel lousy tomorrow, but for today...ok!

I may be able to lighten the fighters over western Honshu and set up some fighter bastions in Eastern Honshu today.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/20/2015 2:45:51 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 2:35:17 PM

Lowpe

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I never really bothered playing around with the ship repair, other than ready - pierside - shipyard.

In the past, when I changed priorities I never saw much of a difference, especially once in a shipyard. Here, though, the BB is too big for the shipyard, and critical shaves off lots of days.

Kind of neat. Thanks Alfred for all the help in understanding repairs better.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/20/2015 3:35:40 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 2:54:47 PM

Lokasenna

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That's a LOT of dead B-24s in just one raid.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 3:02:52 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

That's a LOT of dead B-24s in just one raid.

Unfortunately, it won't slow him down much. Perhaps, he will go back to night bombing some, or he will focus his attacks more.

IF I can string together a several days like this, then it will hurt in the short run.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 3:25:36 PM

Lowpe

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I am going to lose one of my big mutant groups. Originally, I think this guy was on a single cargo ship near Cam Ranh Bay. Over the course of the game I managed to fly them back to Tokyo, where they trained pilots.

If I remove these guys permanently I will get 100PP, which I think is about the best use of the old fighters possible.

Now, of course, it weakens the recon report on Tokyo by 90 fighters. To some degree just having them there probably helped prevent a daytime strike.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 3:35:34 PM

JocMeister

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40 4Es...thats almost a full month worth of replacements! Not bad for a single day I would say.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 4:43:56 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

40 4Es...thats almost a full month worth of replacements! Not bad for a single day I would say.

The build rate is 38 according to Tracker, but there is a replacement rate too, because my spreadsheet show roughly a 100 planes each month.

Turn is away...and I have set up a forward CAP trap at Hirosaki, I simply do not have enough fighters to protect Honshu, chase the Deathstar, sweep the Allies while it seems the Allies have limitless planes, especially cv planes.

I withdrew two fighter units today, both Navy. In March I get a good upgrade to Army fighter strength, and in July (if I make it that far, there is a big withdraw of Navy fighters.

Set up my traps for the Deathstar again this day. Someday something will fly.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 4:56:58 PM

Lowpe

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There are a lot of ways to use Allied bombers, but flying into some of the better protected area of Honshu doesn't seem so great this soon.

Here is the spreadsheet with some of the more interesting planes on it. Tracker shows 700 skytrains destroyed, maybe I shouldn't be so worried about a huge paratroop operation? Eh, probably should.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 5:12:45 PM

Lowpe

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Here is a look at upcoming planes. I had wanted to build some, especially a squadron of Lorna, alas it is not to be.

I really underestimated my DB and TP plane production. I am building 4 TP a day (should be double that at least), and currently 8 DB a day. In march I will build 16 DB a day which will be better. Given my CV losses, my TP fleet has never recovered and I think the Jill may be a solid Kamikaze with great range. Too late to change now.

All these neat planes, and I won't be able to build any. Oh well.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 10:11:41 PM

Lokasenna

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He also has a few hundred of the Commonwealth version of the C-47, plus a couple hundred between the C-86 and C-87... and don't forget that Catalinas (and Coronados) can paradrop as well with good range.

In any case, I still think you blew up a lot of B-24s. About a month's production, and with that many destroyed, how many are damaged and on the ground? Excellent day. I'd be surprised if he kept those groups flying for the next one.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:10:18 PM

Lowpe

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Feb 25, 1944

Allies quiet over Honshu. Heavy bombing the jungle block west of Bangkok. My closest reinforcements have covered 25 miles so far, but I really need to get at least on AA unit there which has covered on a dozen miles.

Lost 100 planes to the Deathstar. I did get 7 kamikaze Helens thru, they missed and or got shredded by TF AA.

My surface fleet, about 40 ships spread across three task forces is 12 hexes away from them if they make for Guam. I probably can get in one or two more air strikes, and if lucky a naval strike. I gotta get something here...

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:22:49 PM

KenchiSulla

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Don't let yourself be discouraged when using FLAK. I've watched a lot of replays and if anything they decrease accuracy.... it is worth it!

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/20/2015 11:57:27 PM

Lowpe

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What me, discouraged? Perish the thought, I have caused the Allies to thrust their neck into the noose. Muhahaha!

Well, I am trying another heavily escorted strike on Sapporo with 24 kamikaze Myojo -- all have training above 55; swept by 50 Georges first, and escorted by 150 fighters versus his 100 plane CAP. Maybe this time!

Frances turn against the Deathstar, escorted by George and Franks. Nothing less than a 70 skill...

10 Destroyers trying to hit the Deathstar this turn, 30 more ships tomorrow...

Turn is away...

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/21/2015 10:49:36 AM

Lowpe

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Feb 26, 1944

No night attacks.

My destroyer squadron ends up 4 hexes short of hitting the Deathstar, they get hit in the afternoon. The Kongo's and destroyers are now 8 hexes from the Deathstar, but spotted with a 10/10DL. He can't know how much is there, but with 8 hexes to cover, and no surprise, not much chance of a surface intercept.

Franks don't fly in the morning raid on the Deathstar and the CAP breezes past the Georges flying escort to shoot down 17 Frances in the morning, an afternoon raid gets all the CAP flying, and they sweep ahead, but none of the 7 or so Frances make it thru the CAP to make runs on the Deathstar.

No joy in Sapporo; Myojo had 55-65 training in LowNav and couldn't hit despite good protection from the escorts.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/21/2015 10:57:07 AM

Lowpe

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In China, we continue doing good work. We wipe out Yenan, and in another battle destroy another Corp in the the once might 16 unit force near the Changsha triangle which is now down to 4 units.

For some reason I thought Yenan had a little generic supply, around 20, but not so in this scenario 1 game.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/21/2015 12:41:21 PM

Lowpe

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I am flying out trying to do some good, again this turn. We shall see what happens as Helen Kamikazes make a go at it again, and also Oscar Kamikazes and Nells will attempt a long range strike on some Allied convoys.

Upgraded another Sentai to Franks....rebuilt my convoys, and of course, training and moving troops.

D4Y4 reach 100 percent research, so it will start production on March 1, doubling my DB production. Desperately needed!

Allies have been quiet over Honshu for the last two days, so I guess that ill advised daytime raid on Nagaoka did hurt him. Not even sweeps.

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