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PBEM frustrations (and ways to solve them) - 3/17/2003 3:39:31 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		It seems I just had like dozenth PBEM opponent drop on me, stop sending turns, stop responding to mails etc.

All this after we BOTH stated in our opening mails how we hate quitters, how we'll do our best to play at least till the autumn of 42 (or until we have clear winner etc.). I was Jap in this game, and my initial offensive was going kinda OK, but not so well as to make him leave the game or surrender. He lost 2 (two) minor ships so far (mid-June).

Don't know what to do. In my personal records I count all them dropouts as "victories" for me but it's small consolation...

What's especially depressing - I've had serious players, UV beta testers, UV modders... quitting our games, just stopping responding to mails just like that!! Don't know who to trust anymore!!

Guys this is BAD manners!

At least, one should have guts and honor to say "I SURRENDER" in his last mail... That's the least thing one should expect. This last player I am talking about (i won't name him, but he's on UV game credits no less!), used MY whining (I was telling how disappointed I was with my Bettys and Nells) as an excuse to quit the game under premises "yes I know you're disappointed with your aircraft, and I got busy lately, so that's it, we'll call it a draw and goodbye"!!

Ridicolous! This is NOT a draw. I think my Bettys are crap, and that my options are severely limited, but I don't surrender because of that. One of the ideas behind this game (especially as Jap) is trying to play under frustrating, adverse conditions. I WANT to try that. I will whine, but I won't abandon the game because of it.

I am thinking of starting a "black list" of PBEM quitters but this would seem small minded and petty...

So, lets rather start a "Gold List" of players that do their duty honorably, always respond to mails, play to the bitter end, and remain dignified both in victory and in defeat.

Apollo 11 is such player. Unfortunatelly I don't know of any others, but I'd love to know their names.

From what I gathered from their epic game, Kid and Crocky also qualify.

BTW, I'd love to start a SERIOUS game of #17 or #19, any side - if you consider yourself honorable, persistent, NOT a quitter, NOT losing interest in game easily, you know you'll find a time to play at least turn a day - please, PLEASE, *PLEASE* contact me.

We may whine, we may curse, we may take days long pauses in our game if needs be, we may do anything that is humanely reasonable, but we won't quit unless in a desperate, "Yamamoto and MacArthur would surender too" kind of situation.

So? PLEASE. It has come to that I am ready to PAY to find worthy PBEM partners! :)

Oleg
Post #: 1
- 3/17/2003 3:48:54 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi

I had this problem at first...I started way too many games and 3-4 just disappeared. So I stuck with the ones who did not and have been playing against them ever since. I hardly ever take up a game against someone I have never played against anymore.

My list of fine players

Mogami
Kid
Arto
DpStafford
Bosun
Gus

I've played many more but these are the players I play against now, except for Gus... I had good fun playing against Spooky too but it was a long time ago.

Started a testing WITP game with Nikademus and Snigbert since they are on the team and I am sure they are OK too.

Oh as the IJN I fight to the finish....in other words if Rabaul falls there is no point but that means my IJN game usually lasts till mid 1943. In my current IJN game vs Mogami we are at September 1943 and I am still giving him a good game. I know I will loose but I love to defend too!

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 2
- 3/17/2003 4:07:17 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		i haven't played that many opponents to the finish but Soulblazer sticks it out(of course he is winning:). I wouldn't take all this too seriously. Alot of people can't take failure and its easy to back out of a pbem game. Just move on and don't waste your energy or time on the back-outs.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 3
- 3/17/2003 4:52:18 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Maybe your too good Oleg :D

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 4
- 3/17/2003 5:00:12 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap Mandrake
[B]Maybe your too good Oleg :D [/B][/QUOTE]

No I am not :)

Actually I am convinced Japs CANNOT win in PBEM unless:

a) Allied player is an idiot
b) Allied player is LOT less experienced than Jap player
c) Allied player QUITS after he loses his first CV, loses interest etc.

Yet, 80% of my PBEMs were as Japs. I love challenge. Most of the times it was option c)...

Maybe in some perverse way it is historic? Ie. Japs were counting on Allies not having the will to fight on... :)

O.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 5
- 3/17/2003 5:09:49 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]No I am not :)

Actually I am convinced Japs CANNOT win in PBEM unless:

a) Allied player is an idiot
b) Allied player is LOT less experienced than Jap player
c) Allied player QUITS after he loses his first CV, loses interest etc.

Yet, 80% of my PBEMs were as Japs. I love challenge. Most of the times it was option c)...

Maybe in some perverse way it is historic? Ie. Japs were counting on Allies not having the will to fight on... :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

option d) IJN opponent is U2 and you will loose:D

I think if the IJN players gets a good start and is given time to build a defensive line that is deep he stands a good chance of getting a draw or a minor victory.

In my IJN game against DpStafford 90% of my forces where keept fighting in NG way too long so I could not move them to stop an offensive against Lunga. The PM operation needs to be quick and painless for things to go my way. This game I expect to loose but I'll give Dan a good game to the finish...Banzai!

I NEVER start an IJN game expecting to loose but to win! If that is not possible it does not really matter since I am having fun anyway

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 6
- 3/17/2003 5:12:59 AM   
Mike_B20

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 2/13/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I must say, all this talk about the prospects of allies versus IJN is confusing.
In another thread, Yamamoto is talking about what happens to ETA ships from PH after he has just captured Noumea.

I remember reading elsewhere that one of the best allied strategies was to put virtually everything in Brisbane and Noumea and concentrate on doing nothing till very late in the game because resistance was futile.

_____________________________

Never give up, never surrender

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 7
- 3/17/2003 5:17:38 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_B20
[B]
I remember reading elsewhere that one of the best allied strategies was to put virtually everything in Brisbane and Noumea and concentrate on doing nothing till very late in the game because resistance was futile. [/B][/QUOTE]

I start moving around October or November unless the IJN players tries to capture something I want to hold (Lugainville or Australia)....still I don't rush to the scene at once but I want to use my airforce to do damage for a while and then send my CVs when I want to. I want decisive battles on my terms not on my opponent's. I try not to do anything at all till I have 5 USN CVs

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 8
- 3/17/2003 5:35:51 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Oleg....once I lose the games I have in progress now, maybe we can play ;)

I have one going where I lost 2 carriers in the first week as Allies :eek: (I foolishly took a double carrier sighting near Rabaul as proof that I could beat up on his boys near Tulagi) its now late July '42 and I am trying to hang on to PM. I will probably lose by sudden death as he has the resources to possibly take an Australian Port ir PM falls. I still haven't given up though...kinda like a Chihuahua barking at a Doberman. I have found it harder to complete turns quickly as the forces get bigger and the danger increases...I don't see how you chaps can churn these out in 15 minutes.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 9
- 3/17/2003 5:38:29 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap Mandrake
[B]
I. I have found it harder to complete turns quickly as the forces get bigger and the danger increases...I don't see how you chaps can churn these out in 15 minutes. [/B][/QUOTE]

3-5 minutes for me :eek:

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 10
- 3/17/2003 6:28:54 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by U2
[B]3-5 minutes for me :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

Now hold on there...it takes longer than that to review some combat replays, even with the extraneous detail turned off.


We are talking about Earth minutes right? Open the Pod Bay doors HAL. :cool:

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 11
- 3/17/2003 6:35:36 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap Mandrake
[B]Now hold on there...it takes longer than that to review some combat replays, even with the extraneous detail turned off.

We are talking about Earth minutes right? Open the Pod Bay doors HAL. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

The idea is - long term planning.

You make your strategic plan on turn X, and then for the next Y turns you just review orders with few touches here and there. In theory, it really does not take very long to play...

Of course, from time to time you have to spend more time reviewing your whole strategy etc. taking an full hour or even more for such, strategy-defining turns.

Believe it or not, I am aware that US player may gather some intel from the times of savefiles, and sometimes take care to artificially make them more apart.

Ie. if the combatreport is generated on 14:30, and turn savefile bears timestamp of 14:35 - that is clearly only a routine turn. If the turn savefile is hour away - whoa, something huge must be brewin' on the IJN side! :)

Yes, the UV brings out the best in men :)

O.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 12
- 3/17/2003 6:37:53 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		I did not include the time it takes to watch the replay:)

_____________________________


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Post #: 13
- 3/17/2003 6:40:03 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]The idea is - long term planning.

You make your strategic plan on turn X, and then for the next Y turns you just review orders with few touches here and there. In theory, it really does not take very long to play...

Ie. if the combatreport is generated on 14:30, and turn savefile bears timestamp of 14:35 - that is clearly only a routine turn. If the turn savefile is hour away - whoa, something huge must be brewin' on the IJN side! :)

Yes, the UV brings out the best in men :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes that's the way I play too, long term planning. Most turns I just have to end and send.

Now I have never thought about that last thing you wrote...clever man:)

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 14
- 3/17/2003 6:53:52 AM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]
Ie. if the combatreport is generated on 14:30, and turn savefile bears timestamp of 14:35 - that is clearly only a routine turn. If the turn savefile is hour away - whoa, something huge must be brewin' on the IJN side! :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm. If I open up the combatreport.txt and save it again it will have a new timestamp, right? I guess I just added 10 seconds on to how long my turns are going to take now. :)

Yamamoto

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 15
- 3/17/2003 7:18:56 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]

Believe it or not, I am aware that US player may gather some intel from the times of savefiles, and sometimes take care to artificially make them more apart.

Ie. if the combatreport is generated on 14:30, and turn savefile bears timestamp of 14:35 - that is clearly only a routine turn. If the turn savefile is hour away - whoa, something huge must be brewin' on the IJN side! :)

Yes, the UV brings out the best in men :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]


That is a dang clever inference :) Hadn't thought of that either.......but for every measure there is a countermeasure. If you want to make your opponent worry, maybe even fatigue his fighter cap a bit, then open the email in the morning before work..generate the combatsave..then do the turn at night.

Conversely, to induce him to let his guard down when you sally forth a big amphibious force or plot a big raid and take a long time on the move, save your turn when you are ready...copy to desktop or rename or something...then rerun your opponents email turn to regenerate the combatsave with a new time stamp (in 2.30 it is alleged to be exactly the same). Next, import your turn..hit endsav...bingo you have a 2 minute turn :)

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 16
My Gold List - 3/17/2003 7:26:06 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Here are my votes for the Gold List:-

Luskan
DoomedMantis
Drongo
Iron Duke
Crocky
Caltone
Nasrullah

These guys will give you all an honest game, prompt turn replies and none of them are quitters.

:cool:

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 17
- 3/17/2003 8:25:58 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		My turns, inclusive of watching the replays, take 20-45 mins.

My planning involves typing notes onto a note pad file.

Mostly I play 6 turns every 7 days.

I am looking forward to WITP but I will not play the long campaign. Not even against the AI.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 18
- 3/17/2003 8:43:24 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		On the topic of 5 minute turns...don't y'all find a need to alter TF courses based on new intelligence (eg. sub sightings), massage the air groups, change recon targets, etc. ? How can you do all that in 5 minutes?? It seems superhuman.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 19
- 3/17/2003 1:12:37 PM   
SoulBlazer

 

Posts: 839
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: Providence RI
Status: offline 		Not every turn. If my planes flew, then I'll check them. If not, no need. Often only small changes are needed in order to affect detailed plans allready in place. And there are many borring stretches in the game. :)

_____________________________

The US Navy could probaly win a war without coffee, but would prefer not to try -- Samuel Morison

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 20
- 3/17/2003 1:24:01 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		My view is that every ship avery aircraft has a job to do.

Every turn I need to check that they are doing their job.

Why is this TF heading over there?

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 21
Brilliant idea Oleg - 3/17/2003 3:42:06 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		This is an excellent idea for a thread Oleg. I've started 10 PBEM games, and although I've only finished 1 (my first against Raver - was very clear the game was over although only just december 42) only 3 others (including the second game vs Raver) have lasted more than two months game time and will play out to a clear victory/defeat.

Of the 6 "forfiet" games:
1 opponent ended all his games for personal reasons and I had no problem whatsoever with it - especially since he was sure to email everyone.
1 Opponent was angry that I won the battle of the Coral sea as the IJN (he was a newbie - of course I was going to win hands down!) and sent me a surrender email.
4 opponents lost the coral sea battle (or didn't loose, but lost CVs) and disappeared, never to be seen or heard from again. :mad:

Raver, Doomed Mantis and Admiral Arctic have all been averaging 10-15 turns a week for months in a row now (even with my email letting them down lately - message rules all solved!!!!).

If you want to start that other list (you all know what I mean) I've got 4 definites - although I haven't seen them on the boards signing up for other games otherwise I would have been properly rude and warned their would-be opponents off!
:D

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 22
- 3/17/2003 3:56:08 PM   
johnmac

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 5/9/2002
From: wales
Status: offline 		Well, let me also endorse Bosun as a good opponent, we're on our second game, and we've been playing (time flies...) since July 2002. I'd won my previous two games, but he handed me my hat in the first one.

Not finding it quite so easy this time, though.

:cool:

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 23
- 3/17/2003 6:31:10 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Hmmmm....perhaps "we", the veteran posters/players should take more care in fostering the newbies, so that they will not loose heart and bugger off after a few dozen turns? Scenerios such as #5 with the Newbies playing the Allies is an excellent way to bring their confidence level up.
So maybe we should not be bitching at the wankers whom quit, but look at ourselfs instead?:confused:

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 24
- 3/17/2003 6:38:47 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]So maybe we should not be bitching at the wankers whom quit, but look at ourselfs instead?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Blame myself? Hardly:D ;)

I advice all of you reading this to get a reliable gaming partner in time for WITP....

_____________________________


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 25
- 3/17/2003 8:57:02 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		I can certainly recommend Caltone - an even keeled player. Don't know how far we got in our last game. We mutually agreed to start over when 2.30 came out. It has been fun.

Dennisonh is another opponent who lasted until we agreed in March (or was it April) '43 that my cause as the Japanese was hopeless and ended the game. Depending on my schedule we may start again soon.

And Mogami hung in there even after I whupped him (only kidding) - until I quit in November '42 because Yamaguchi, Ozawa and Nagumo forgot to take their sanity pills.

The others? Well, all but one of them were kind enough to send an email telling me they quit.:)

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 26
- 3/17/2003 9:32:16 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]Hmmmm....perhaps "we", the veteran posters/players should take more care in fostering the newbies, so that they will not loose heart and bugger off after a few dozen turns? Scenerios such as #5 with the Newbies playing the Allies is an excellent way to bring their confidence level up.
So maybe we should not be bitching at the wankers whom quit, but look at ourselfs instead?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]


I can tell you that a newbie going up against an experienced player is like signing up for an adult education class in prison rape :) I just opened a scen 17 turn where my opponent sailed a 4 carrier TF 6 Hexes from Brisbane undetected and sunk 6 AP's. He also seems to have magical powers against my subs. He has taught me the effectiveness of a small Bombardment force...catching my troop-transport TF at PM...and its only mid June 42!!! It would be a stretch to say I am having fun..but I never enjoyed school that much either.

Playing another beginner is like switching to to the 6 ft.-and-under
basketball league when you have been beat up by Kobe and Allen Iverson. :)

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 27
- 3/17/2003 10:14:48 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		I have no objection to a "Gold" list for players who are dependable but a "black List" turns me off. Not everyone can get along in pbem and if someone habitually quits games, then the word will get around anyway. Even a "Gold List" strikes me as elitetist but at least it is not negative and does not impugn someone's reputation.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 28
- 3/17/2003 10:31:08 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Black list was never a serious idea... BTW, player who prompted me to start this thread saw it and reconsidered, so we continue our game.

Obivously, whining may be misunderstood sometimes. Be careful not to whine too much too! :)

O.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 29
- 3/17/2003 11:22:27 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]Black list was never a serious idea... BTW, player who prompted me to start this thread saw it and reconsidered, so we continue our game.

Obivously, whining may be misunderstood sometimes. Be careful not to whine too much too! :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a saying in the US Army

"If a soldier ain't bitching, he ain't happy":)

Glad to see you are one happy camper Oleg:D

But I have to say that most of us who play UV PBEM with anyone other than your brother will at some point have someone quit. I have had 3 players drop on me.

But I have been blessed with some good opponents who are good about keeping a steady pace for the turns, and answer emails. My gold list

Sonny (I think the rematch on this one will be a tough match)
Worr
Fenelon
LEBILLAN
John Perryman

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 30
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