RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 7:33:32 PM

hellfish6

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Not unrealistic at all. If it can be thought of by me it can be thought of by many. Lot's of people are against DLC maybe not as many by expansions and I even said I'll buy an expansion from time to time. Don't ever forget the "silent" majority also. Having looked at steamcharts.com of many of the Slitherine titles that are on Steam they need all the support they can get I'm sure. I just won't be one of them as far as DLC goes.

I hope you/we get it. But I really don't think we will.

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Post #: 61

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 7:59:12 PM

wodin

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From: England
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Not really...a game designed to be played from the top down would be much easier to manage and control than say CMx2 games are when playing top down, also CMx2 isn't really designed as a WEGO game so has issues playing like that.I envision the game to look very different to CMx2. The loss of hexes really wasn't a major request..I've just found abstract hex terrain if coupled with a highly detailed combat mechanic can create problems.

As for WEGO their is no reason that can't be played PBEM..You do your turned they do theirs then plays end of turn and you get the save where then you can watch the outcome.

I feel at a tactical scale then simultaneous turns is the most realistic mechanic..at higher scales then IGOUGO is fine. Flashpoint Campaigns is a breath of fresh air as it uses it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

wodin, it sounds like your wishes would create another CM/Panzer Command type of game. Why another one of those? Aren't they good enough now? I want the tried and true IGO-UGO style, hexes and the like so you can have easily done pbem games with results as soon as you move and fire. I dislike plotting moves -- especially travel columns -- with a passion.

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Post #: 62

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 8:01:33 PM

VegasOZ

Posts: 295
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I will buy Steel Tigers the instant it is published, so what's the hold up.

I'd love to see a graphics "mod" that spruces up Steel Panthers too. It is still a great game just a tad ugly nowadays.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 63

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 8:16:04 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

Just as a thought, I wonder if Steel Tigers should take on a pseudo-Crusader Kings 2/ Europa Universalis model of development and distribution. AKA, start with a reasonably sized aspect of the war (East Front 41-5, come on there is no other option), then expand gradually with DLC for other theaters, all the while (and this is critical), updating the core game and owned DLC for free, just like CK2 does now. That would allow a fairly constant revenue stream, and might make for a lot more detailed and specific theater details as each one is "hand-crafted." And it might be a model that would keep Steel Tigers being updated and improved for as long as many of us have been playing Steel Panthers (aka approaching 20 years.)

And heck, I'd have no issue in a Steel Panthers sequel paying for cosmetic DLC like Paradox constantly releases, for example desert camouflage on tanks or some such.

But the key is to do it like Paradox does on CK2, of always making the core changes to the engine available free to all, while broadening the game through new bought content for those who chose to. I could also see Steel Tigers being a game which could potentially be very successful on Steam--- I mean CK2 came out of near no-where, and it's probably a more obtuse and complex game than the original Steel Panthers.

DLC is a non starter for me.

They better have it all just like Steel Panthers or I won't buy it.

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Post #: 64

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 9:11:07 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Not really...a game designed to be played from the top down would be much easier to manage and control than say CMx2 games are when playing top down, also CMx2 isn't really designed as a WEGO game so has issues playing like that.I envision the game to look very different to CMx2. The loss of hexes really wasn't a major request..I've just found abstract hex terrain if coupled with a highly detailed combat mechanic can create problems.

As for WEGO their is no reason that can't be played PBEM..You do your turned they do theirs then plays end of turn and you get the save where then you can watch the outcome.

I feel at a tactical scale then simultaneous turns is the most realistic mechanic..at higher scales then IGOUGO is fine. Flashpoint Campaigns is a breath of fresh air as it uses it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

wodin, it sounds like your wishes would create another CM/Panzer Command type of game. Why another one of those? Aren't they good enough now? I want the tried and true IGO-UGO style, hexes and the like so you can have easily done pbem games with results as soon as you move and fire. I dislike plotting moves -- especially travel columns -- with a passion.

Yes, but this is a SPWAW spiritual successor not CMx1 or CMx2. We've already been there done that with them. Now's the time for a REAL wargame spiritual successor of IGOUGO for SPWAW. I wouldn't want to see any of the mechanics really change in Steel Tigers just the graphics. Why try to fix what is not broken in SPWAW?

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 65

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/27/2015 9:12:21 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

Just as a thought, I wonder if Steel Tigers should take on a pseudo-Crusader Kings 2/ Europa Universalis model of development and distribution. AKA, start with a reasonably sized aspect of the war (East Front 41-5, come on there is no other option), then expand gradually with DLC for other theaters, all the while (and this is critical), updating the core game and owned DLC for free, just like CK2 does now. That would allow a fairly constant revenue stream, and might make for a lot more detailed and specific theater details as each one is "hand-crafted." And it might be a model that would keep Steel Tigers being updated and improved for as long as many of us have been playing Steel Panthers (aka approaching 20 years.)

And heck, I'd have no issue in a Steel Panthers sequel paying for cosmetic DLC like Paradox constantly releases, for example desert camouflage on tanks or some such.

But the key is to do it like Paradox does on CK2, of always making the core changes to the engine available free to all, while broadening the game through new bought content for those who chose to. I could also see Steel Tigers being a game which could potentially be very successful on Steam--- I mean CK2 came out of near no-where, and it's probably a more obtuse and complex game than the original Steel Panthers.

DLC is a non starter for me.

They better have it all just like Steel Panthers or I won't buy it.

I didn't think I was alone in this.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 66

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 1:13:23 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
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From: England
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Well if you drop WEGO and No Hexes I think the rest of my wish list was fine:)

As for DLC I'm fine with it, as long as it's worth it. I veyr much doubt in this era were going to get the same sort of content as SP had in the initial release. Just like in the old days patches had new content that they sell as DLC\Expansions, we aren't going to get a game with all Nations and all theatres.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Not really...a game designed to be played from the top down would be much easier to manage and control than say CMx2 games are when playing top down, also CMx2 isn't really designed as a WEGO game so has issues playing like that.I envision the game to look very different to CMx2. The loss of hexes really wasn't a major request..I've just found abstract hex terrain if coupled with a highly detailed combat mechanic can create problems.

As for WEGO their is no reason that can't be played PBEM..You do your turned they do theirs then plays end of turn and you get the save where then you can watch the outcome.

I feel at a tactical scale then simultaneous turns is the most realistic mechanic..at higher scales then IGOUGO is fine. Flashpoint Campaigns is a breath of fresh air as it uses it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

wodin, it sounds like your wishes would create another CM/Panzer Command type of game. Why another one of those? Aren't they good enough now? I want the tried and true IGO-UGO style, hexes and the like so you can have easily done pbem games with results as soon as you move and fire. I dislike plotting moves -- especially travel columns -- with a passion.

Yes, but this is a SPWAW spiritual successor not CMx1 or CMx2. We've already been there done that with them. Now's the time for a REAL wargame spiritual successor of IGOUGO for SPWAW. I wouldn't want to see any of the mechanics really change in Steel Tigers just the graphics. Why try to fix what is not broken in SPWAW?

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/28/2015 2:15:38 AM >

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Post #: 67

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 1:31:38 AM

marcpennington

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I agree with many posts above that having Steel Tigers on first release cover the entire war in all theaters is completely unrealistic. Games have gotten a lot more complicated to code, and if anything I imagine the 2by3 design staff is actually smaller than the original SSI one that did Steel Panthers.

But all that said, I think a modular release could be a huge positive. AKA, fund multiple patches in part by expanding the game system to new fronts/ new scenarios. And again, the Parodox CK2 model I think would be ideal---- it's a game that started with a 1066 start and playing only European countries. But subsequent DLCs have expanded it as far East as India, and as far back as Charlemagne, but still if you only bought the initial game, you could still play those European countries from 1066 with all the new improvements. You just couldn't, say, play a Muslim dynasty if you hadn't bought the Sword of Islam DLC. To say the least, it seems like it has been a highly successful model for Paradox, and I could really see being one for Steel Tigers as well. It would give the developers a way to keep patching the content, while also generating a revenue stream.

And more to the point, given current development cycles, if we expect Steel Tigers to cover the entire war, we won't see it this decade. I want to start playing it now. NOW! NOW!

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 68

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 2:10:26 AM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

I agree with many posts above that having Steel Tigers on first release cover the entire war in all theaters is completely unrealistic. Games have gotten a lot more complicated to code, and if anything I imagine the 2by3 design staff is actually smaller than the original SSI one that did Steel Panthers.

But all that said, I think a modular release could be a huge positive. AKA, fund multiple patches in part by expanding the game system to new fronts/ new scenarios. And again, the Parodox CK2 model I think would be ideal---- it's a game that started with a 1066 start and playing only European countries. But subsequent DLCs have expanded it as far East as India, and as far back as Charlemagne, but still if you only bought the initial game, you could still play those European countries from 1066 with all the new improvements. You just couldn't, say, play a Muslim dynasty if you hadn't bought the Sword of Islam DLC. To say the least, it seems like it has been a highly successful model for Paradox, and I could really see being one for Steel Tigers as well. It would give the developers a way to keep patching the content, while also generating a revenue stream.

And more to the point, given current development cycles, if we expect Steel Tigers to cover the entire war, we won't see it this decade. I want to start playing it now. NOW! NOW!

Seriously, if it goes that route, I will wait until the "platinum edition" goes on sale for $5, and let the others pay $100 for another stupid Bulge game.

The next compromise will be no AI. Go ahead, admit it, you'll compromise on that too.

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Post #: 69

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 4:27:37 AM

marcpennington

Posts: 335
Joined: 1/31/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

I agree with many posts above that having Steel Tigers on first release cover the entire war in all theaters is completely unrealistic. Games have gotten a lot more complicated to code, and if anything I imagine the 2by3 design staff is actually smaller than the original SSI one that did Steel Panthers.

But all that said, I think a modular release could be a huge positive. AKA, fund multiple patches in part by expanding the game system to new fronts/ new scenarios. And again, the Parodox CK2 model I think would be ideal---- it's a game that started with a 1066 start and playing only European countries. But subsequent DLCs have expanded it as far East as India, and as far back as Charlemagne, but still if you only bought the initial game, you could still play those European countries from 1066 with all the new improvements. You just couldn't, say, play a Muslim dynasty if you hadn't bought the Sword of Islam DLC. To say the least, it seems like it has been a highly successful model for Paradox, and I could really see being one for Steel Tigers as well. It would give the developers a way to keep patching the content, while also generating a revenue stream.

And more to the point, given current development cycles, if we expect Steel Tigers to cover the entire war, we won't see it this decade. I want to start playing it now. NOW! NOW!

Seriously, if it goes that route, I will wait until the "platinum edition" goes on sale for $5, and let the others pay $100 for another stupid Bulge game.

The next compromise will be no AI. Go ahead, admit it, you'll compromise on that too.

Err, no. I mean I don't want to get in an argument about how current game release models work (even if maybe I kinda started it), but going from my above comments to a no-AI version of a game is just plain stupid, and against anything I ever said in posts, or how the CK2/ Paradox model of development/ release have worked in practice. To the extent that I'm withdrawing from any future debate there.

Let me just say, I would just like to see some version of Steel Tigers in my own life-time, even if it doesn't cover every single aspect of WW2 right off on the bat.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 70

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 5:53:07 AM

aaatoysandmore

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Just a thought but there is another counter system I could get into for this game and that's Mark Walker's counters and units in Heroes of Stalingrad. Let me hear what ya think about that?

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Post #: 71

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 6:03:28 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
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From: England
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OK just read that the SUB engine i.e Battle Academy is the basis of the new Archon engine that will be used for Steel Tigers....make your own conclusions.

From Pip over at Slitherine

"We are continuing to support the STUB engine going forward, and it is the basis for the new Archon engine too.

Cheers

Pip"

So is ST going to be a watered down Steel Panthers that will sell on mobiles etc, like a gritty Battle Academy? I know there is Tigers on the Hunt in development which you'll say is for the hardcore however in my opinion it has a long way to go and isn't what a new SP would be like. I really hope this isn't the case and ST is a true successor to SP doing what SP did well even better and adding to it. Combat Leader was looking like it could have been the new SP but you dropped it!!

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/28/2015 7:10:17 AM >

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Post #: 72

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 3:57:11 PM

aaatoysandmore

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How do you know about Tigers on the Hunt? and why do you think it has a long way to go?

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Post #: 73

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 4:16:08 PM

marcpennington

Posts: 335
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Just a thought but there is another counter system I could get into for this game and that's Mark Walker's counters and units in Heroes of Stalingrad. Let me hear what ya think about that?

I agree completely there--- those HOS counters are great, and in many ways would work better than 2d or 3d "realistic" models to convey information.

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Post #: 74

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 4:22:51 PM

budd

Posts: 2972
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i have a hard time buying that 2by3 would be involved in anything that the term watered down applies too. I also think that there is no way in these times that the package will contain the content that the original had, i'm just hoping that they dont go the campaign route i.e. one campaign, with scenario's for smaller actions inside that campaign, you know the milk every last dollar out of the customer approach. I'm fine with the theatre focused products, besides the wider the area they cover the worse the AI will be, theoretically anyway.

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Post #: 75

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 6:09:57 PM

DROregon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK just read that the SUB engine i.e Battle Academy is the basis of the new Archon engine that will be used for Steel Tigers....make your own conclusions.

I don't know the current quality of Battle Academy's engine. What are people's opinion. I guess I'll buy it to form my own opinion. The game cost is cheap.

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Post #: 76

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 6:32:48 PM

Zap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Just a thought but there is another counter system I could get into for this game and that's Mark Walker's counters and units in Heroes of Stalingrad. Let me hear what ya think about that?

I could live with that style.

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Post #: 77

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 6:38:06 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Just a thought but there is another counter system I could get into for this game and that's Mark Walker's counters and units in Heroes of Stalingrad. Let me hear what ya think about that?

That counter and map style is just about what I want to see. Although the game module concept of that release was/is simply too skinny in content for me. A good and bad example in that sense.

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Post #: 78

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 10:56:31 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DROregon

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK just read that the SUB engine i.e Battle Academy is the basis of the new Archon engine that will be used for Steel Tigers....make your own conclusions.

I don't know the current quality of Battle Academy's engine. What are people's opinion. I guess I'll buy it to form my own opinion. The game cost is cheap.

It's easy on the eyes that's for sure but it's not realistic enough like a SPWAW. It does feel like a watered down SPWAW without all the nations to play with.

I mean don't get me wrong I like Battle Academy but it just doesn't have that pull of a SPWAW for me. I like the random campaigns one can make in SPWAW and the buy point system of a skirmish or campaign. Plus the reinforcement pool and all that. Face it SPWAW gave us EVERYTHING a wargamer could want back in its day. I mean cmon it has the Pacific side of the war units in it also.

I just hope this spiritual successor does the same in ONE package. It is NOT unrealistic to think such either. If they can do it once they can do it again. Distant Worlds doesn't have 1000 DLC to it. I bought every "expansion" of it but I will not buy DLC for a game unless it is so low in price I don't care about a $1. Talisman Digital is just one game with a ridiculous price of $1.99 per character, PER CHARACTER I just could not believe that and I held my ground and they finally had DLC sales for those very same characters for .39 cents. Even that is too high for ONE CHARACTER but I did cave and buy a few at that price. Paradox with Crusader Kings II is unbelievable with their DLC for it. I mean seriously if you bought all that I think you would be near $100 for that game and it's just not necessary.

I'm sure it doesn't matter to Slitherine/Matrixgames what I think or you think as long as it doesn't effect the bottom line they are looking for. Actually I'm kinda sure you guys are right they are gonna DLC/Expansion this game to death and make mint. I'll probably buy the original package and never look back at the DLC but might look at the expansions. I'm just giving feedback as to what kind of consumer I am when it comes to PC games.

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Post #: 79

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/28/2015 11:21:49 PM

milkweg

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If this new game engine for Steel Tigers is based on Battlefield Academy game engine it better not have the same cartoon graphics.

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Post #: 80

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 12:32:44 AM

stevemk1a

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For me, Steel Panthers ... (actually SPWAW). was always the playable ASL for the computer. I paid (literally

)$1000's of dollars on ASL stuff when I was in my early 20's and couldn't really afford it ... finding SPWAW on a cd gamer demo disc 15 or so years ago was a relevation to me, I loved it. I still have all the ASL stuff somewhere in my basement mostly unused (but I loved to read the manuals and scenario cards

). I played the heck out of Steel Panthers and I would love to see it updated as original as possible, just improved. SPWAW and I have grown apart, but I want her back

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Post #: 81

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 3:59:00 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: milkweg

If this new game engine for Steel Tigers is based on Battlefield Academy game engine it better not have the same cartoon graphics.

From ESPN: Awwww cmon man!!

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Post #: 82

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 2:43:39 PM

Erik Rutins

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Just to put to rest one rumor - Steel Tigers is _not_ going to be "watered down".

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Post #: 83

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 2:55:45 PM

Mobius

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Is the Achron engine 3D? If so can it do multiple heights, like units on bridges over other units on the ground or river below?

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Post #: 84

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 3:13:22 PM

vonRocko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to put to rest one rumor - Steel Tigers is _not_ going to be "watered down".

That's what I wanted to hear! Now you got my interest.
Thanks Erik

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Post #: 85

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 3:19:55 PM

fvianello

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Steel Tigers is what you have all been waiting for, no more details for now, but when we can share we will.

YEAH!

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Post #: 86

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 4:15:49 PM

PipFromSlitherine

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK just read that the SUB engine i.e Battle Academy is the basis of the new Archon engine that will be used for Steel Tigers....make your own conclusions.

From Pip over at Slitherine

"We are continuing to support the STUB engine going forward, and it is the basis for the new Archon engine too.

Cheers

Pip"

So is ST going to be a watered down Steel Panthers that will sell on mobiles etc, like a gritty Battle Academy? I know there is Tigers on the Hunt in development which you'll say is for the hardcore however in my opinion it has a long way to go and isn't what a new SP would be like. I really hope this isn't the case and ST is a true successor to SP doing what SP did well even better and adding to it. Combat Leader was looking like it could have been the new SP but you dropped it!!

You are confusing engines with games. Even with BA the only thing stopping a game from being as hardcore as SP++++ is the designer. STUB and Archon are designed to put all the power in the hands of the designer. ST is going to lead on PC, no compromises.

Cheers

Pip

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Post #: 87

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 6:28:14 PM

Jeffrey H.

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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to put to rest one rumor - Steel Tigers is _not_ going to be "watered down".

WOOT !!!

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Post #: 88

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 6:28:46 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

OK just read that the SUB engine i.e Battle Academy is the basis of the new Archon engine that will be used for Steel Tigers....make your own conclusions.

From Pip over at Slitherine

"We are continuing to support the STUB engine going forward, and it is the basis for the new Archon engine too.

Cheers

Pip"

So is ST going to be a watered down Steel Panthers that will sell on mobiles etc, like a gritty Battle Academy? I know there is Tigers on the Hunt in development which you'll say is for the hardcore however in my opinion it has a long way to go and isn't what a new SP would be like. I really hope this isn't the case and ST is a true successor to SP doing what SP did well even better and adding to it. Combat Leader was looking like it could have been the new SP but you dropped it!!

You are confusing engines with games. Even with BA the only thing stopping a game from being as hardcore as SP++++ is the designer. STUB and Archon are designed to put all the power in the hands of the designer. ST is going to lead on PC, no compromises.

Cheers

Pip

WOOT WOOT !

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History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)

Post #: 89

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 6/29/2015 8:33:55 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to put to rest one rumor - Steel Tigers is _not_ going to be "watered down".

Righto. There used to be rumours and claims that Civilization IV would be watered down or simplified before it was released. It wasn't.

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 90