RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/27/2015 7:50:05 PM

Jagdtiger14

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Warspite: "Dislike of Lewis outweighs the wish that Mercedes (other than Rosberg) does well..."

No, I would still root for Lewis to do well if the Constructors Championship was under any threat. Mercedes winning that Championship outweighs my dislike for Lewis.

As for team orders, I've seen much of it since I've been watching F1 (1998)...its the thing I don't like about F1. And yes, British Exile...Ferrari seems to me to have done it far more often. I have no doubt Ferrari would use team orders to help Vettle win the Drivers Championship. So far, I hav'nt seen much indication this season that Kimi has been able to put himself in a position to help Vettel...this could change of course, and the possibility did exist in this last race. Question is...was this last race and indicationt that Ferrari has gotten much better?...or is it a one off? We have to wait the entire Summer break to find out, and this is another thing I don't like about F1...the Summer break...or is it this long this year because of the cancelation of the German Grand Prix?

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/27/2015 10:15:18 PM

Gilmer

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Ferrari is better with Vettel behind the wheel. I think he has gotten better throughout the year. I don't know if he is quite to the level of Hamilton and Rosberg, yet, but he could get there soon.

Next year might be very interesting. You guys follow it much closer than I so you would know if Ferrari has engine/car that is not as good as Mercedes and it's not just racing ability.

I do remember that a couple of races ago the announcers were talking about the drivers in the team, Williams? Managed to get out front but the faster driver was in 2nd. They were talking about whether the driver in the 1st position would be asked to allow the faster teammate through. They opined that because the team did not ask that, it cost them the race win. I think that was at Silverstone and it was Williams because they are a hometown favorite team.

Dunno.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/28/2015 6:00:49 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Ferrari is better with Vettel behind the wheel. I think he has gotten better throughout the year. I don't know if he is quite to the level of Hamilton and Rosberg, yet, but he could get there soon.

Next year might be very interesting. You guys follow it much closer than I so you would know if Ferrari has engine/car that is not as good as Mercedes and it's not just racing ability.

I do remember that a couple of races ago the announcers were talking about the drivers in the team, Williams? Managed to get out front but the faster driver was in 2nd. They were talking about whether the driver in the 1st position would be asked to allow the faster teammate through. They opined that because the team did not ask that, it cost them the race win. I think that was at Silverstone and it was Williams because they are a hometown favorite team.

Dunno.

warspite1

Vettel is certainly doing an excellent job this year and like all greats - Alonso and Lewis of the current crop - he can eke out wins where others would fail to find them.

One thing though that does pee me off is the idea that he doesn't make mistakes. Vettel is clearly a great driver, but he is just as prone to stupid mistakes when under a bit of pressure as anyone else. But as I say, if Ferrari continue their progress then this World Championship (as far as Vettel is concerned anyway) is far from over.

The consensus is that yes, Williams compromised their race at Silverstone by not allowing Bottas past Massa. It would not have made any difference ultimately as the Williams appears to suck in the rain, but had it stayed dry, the feeling was that Bottas could have pulled out a gap to the 3rd placed Lewis and so remained ahead during the pitstops.

I think the chances of Raikonnen staying at Ferrari next year must be high - Bottas, if he is that good, should be mullering Massa, but he is too closely matched with the Brazilian I think.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/28/2015 7:40:00 PM

Hotschi

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Reading the very informative post about team orders in the past, I wonder if some champions, notably Alonso, would have won the title - without team orders...

Every driver makes mistakes - but the best drivers rarely make mistakes. Sorry to join the "Anti-Lewis" fan-club, but what can constantly be observed is, that whenever a race does not start with Hamilton having all the best options in his camp he almost always makes mistakes - and starts complaining about his team mate (or rival). He is a very fast driver, but IMHO he is definitely not in the same league as Senna, Prost, Lauda, Schumacher and even Vettel. Hamilton drives fast, but apparently without brain as well. And this Statement has nothing to do with his nationality, or with his skin-colour, but everything to do with his personality (as he shows it in public). He's a fair-weather pilot and a cry-baby.

About team orders, I cannot remember a situation in F1 where both drivers of a team have won a title during the same successful period, it has always just been one of both - with one exemption, Senna and Prost, but I am not sure about it.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 5:04:52 AM

warspite1

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Re the last comment:

Brabham/Hulme - Brabham 1966 and 1967

Prost/Lauda - McLaren 1984 and 1985

Re the second point I will respond when I have the time, but in the meantime I am intrigued by the first point. Why do you suggest that Alonso may not have won the title without team orders?

The years 2000-2006 are not exactly my specialist subject but I am unaware of any reason why you would think Fisichella could ever have been able to challenge Alonso? Even if Alonso was contractually no.1 (I am unaware whether or not he even was) I do not see that in reality, the Italian could get near him. The latter won two races in two seasons, but couldn't even finish higher than 5th and 4th in the championship with the best (or second best) car while his Spanish team mate won two titles and 14 races. For a long time Fisichella was considered a future World Champion by some, but sadly if there was any doubt left, his results with Ferrari in 2009 said pretty much everything about his ultimate ability in a racing car.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/29/2015 7:06:38 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 8:08:47 AM

cohimbra

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Ferrari use team order? Sure, it's clear to all and they never deny it (well, maybe some times).
Other teams use team order? Sure, but they say "We?! No, no, no, never in our lifes! We're gentleman!"...but when points began very important...
"hey, you must slow down, tire pression, tire pression!"...
"we've an engine lose of power, slow down, slow down!"...

Back to seriousness, the main difference between Ferrari and other main teams is that Ferrari choose one pilot to win and the other to help. Right? Wrong? It's a choise, Maranello don't like two 'first' pilots at all.

And about Raikkonen, for me he have 0% chance to stay in Ferrari at this point; for a reason or another he don't guarantee results continuity, like requested to a 'second' driver. We'll see.

Ah, and I don't understand your doubts about Hamilton/Mercedes. He's (one of) the best pilots in the best car, he have experience, speed and continuity. He made some error here and here, but who don't do that? Rosberg simply can't win versus Hamilton in the long run (at the same condition). IMO.

Last thing: Ferrari win in Budapest because Mercedes harakiri and track peculiarities. No chance to compete for Championship this year (Pilots & Constructors), and maybe next too.

< Message edited by cohimbra -- 7/29/2015 9:23:18 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 8:29:06 AM

AndyG1

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Got to say I have been a Jenson Button fan since he first drove for Williams - just liked what I saw and nothing has changed my opinion since. However, I am somewhat puzzled by peoples dislike of Hamilton. But each to their own.

Now Vettel.....ignorer of team orders - LOL. Winner of a vast number of races in car that was the best in the field. Now he's joined Ferrari and won 2. That's a good starting point, but he'll have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies - indeed only last year has he really had a dominant car to win in.

Anyway, halcyon days of F1....where you didn't have to open a flap to pass anyone.....time to feast your eyes on pure guts and determination, cars on big slicks, V12 engine in a Ferrari (SCREAMMMMM), on a bumpy track ("oh, no, there's a 1mm bump on the corner and it unsettles the car" of drivers these days - LOL).

People always ask what's the best pass they've ever seen. Hakkinen on Schumy at Spa is definitely up there, on using opportunity to best effect. But no, I choose this one.

Cast you mind back to 1990, Mexico, Peraltada....and Nigel Mansell on worn out tyres REFUSING to give up against a guy on fresher tyres...and that guy had just passed him for P2 with a handful of laps left, in a rather locked up get out my way style. Our Nige says, "I'll show you how to do it proper".....in STYLE! Enjoy....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqaXktfn90M

< Message edited by AndyG1 -- 7/29/2015 9:30:42 AM >

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Post #: 667

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 1:28:49 PM

british exil

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Can't watch youtube because my browser says the account is closed.

I can still remember Mansell trying to overtake Senna in Monaco is his last F1 season. Last lap, last corner, trying to squeeze through the slightest gap.

Mat

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 6:00:30 PM

Jagdtiger14

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AndyG1: About Vettel vs Hamilton: "He'll (Vettel) have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies."...I assume you are ignoring stats and are focused on the quality of the teams? When Hamilton was with McLaren (teamed with Alonso) he had a car that was capable of winning. Why would Vettel have to go down the path of winning in a bad car just to prove something? Statistically Vettel is the better driver, especially in the ultimate stat: 4-2 in championships.

I wont speak for others, but my dislike of Hamilton is: 1. I don't like his attitude...ie...not a gracious winner or loser, very arrogant. Some would say he's earned his right to be so...personally, I don't think he's there yet on that score. 2. I don't like his style/image...especially his wearing of the straight-bill hood hat...like he admires the hood, which if he does (or wants to identify with it) shows very bad character and class (as it does on Mercedes for making that cr*p). If he really cared about the hood, he would go there and be a positive role model rather than sporting and promoting negative stero-types. My hope is he will become more mature over time...he's 30 already and needs to wake up.

For all you Brits: Did'nt Hamilton become Swiss and now Monaco?

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 6:08:11 PM

british exil

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quote:

For all you Brits: Did'nt Hamilton become Swiss and now Monaco?

Source:https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/2o5mw9/f1_drivers_champions_living_in_tax_exile/

After all of the (in my opinion, unfair) criticism Lewis Hamilton has received in the British press for living as a tax exile in Monaco, I started researching how many of F1's drivers' champions have lived in tax havens.

Unsurprisingly, it's nearly all of them, going back at least as far as Jim Clark, and with an unbroken chain from Alain Prost in 1985 to Lewis Hamilton today.

It's a rough job, but it gives some indication how prolific tax dodging is in F1. If anyone could help fill in the gaps that would be much appreciated.

2008, 2014: Lewis Hamilton. Tax exile, Monaco (previously Switzerland)
2010�2013: Sebastian Vettel. Tax exile, Switzerland
2009: Jenson Button. Tax exile, Monaco (previously Jersey)
2007: Kimi Raikkonen. Tax exile, Switzerland
2005�2006: Fernando Alonso. Former tax exile, Switzerland, now living in Spain
1994�1995, 2000�2004: Michael Schumacher. Tax exile, Switzerland
1998�1999: Mika Hakkinen. Tax exile, Monaco
1997: Jacques Villeneuve. Tax exile, Andorra
1996: Damon Hill. Tax exile, Monaco (formerly Isle of Man?)
1985�1986, 1989, 1993: Alain Prost. Tax exile, Switzerland
1992: Nigel Mansell. Tax exile, Jersey
1988, 1990�1991: Ayrton Senna. Tax exile, Monaco
1981, 1983, 1987: Nelson Piquet. Tax exile, Monaco
1975, 1977, 1984: Niki Lauda. No tax exile?
1982: Keke Rosberg. Tax exile, Monaco
1980: Alan Jones. No tax exile?
1979: Jody Scheckter. Tax exile, Monaco
1978: Mario Andretti. No tax exile?
1976: James Hunt. Tax exile, Monaco
1972, 1974: Emerson Fittipaldi. No tax exile?
1969, 1971, 1973: Jackie Stewart. Tax exile, Switzerland
1970: Jochen Rindt. Tax exile, Switzerland
1962, 1968: Graham Hill. No tax exile?
1967: Denny Hulme. No tax exile?
1959, 1960, 1966: Jack Brabham. No tax exile?
1963, 1965: Jim Clark. Tax exile, Switzerland
1964: John Surtees. No tax exile?
1961: Phil Hill. No tax exile?
1958: Mike Hawthorn. No tax exile?
1951, 1954�1957: Juan Manuel Fangio. No tax exile?
1952�1953: Alberto Ascari. No tax exile?
1950: Giuseppe Farina. No tax exile?

Mat

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 6:51:05 PM

Hotschi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Re the last comment:

Brabham/Hulme - Brabham 1966 and 1967

Prost/Lauda - McLaren 1984 and 1985

... Why do you suggest that Alonso may not have won the title without team orders?

1984 and 1985, that's 30 years ago... So it happened twice in the whole F1 history. That's rare me thinks!

Why I picked Alonso? I don't know, he was just mentioned a couple times in the "team-orders" post, and I picked his name without even checking when he won the titles...

I am definitely not a fan of team orders, but let's be frank, ALL teams use team orders, openly, or disguised in one way or another. Different material is one way of disguise, different treatment of the drivers another. As example, in one of the most recent qualifications - I think it was Silverstone - both Rosberg and Hamilton were in their last attempt to improve their position. Bothwere extremelyfast, with Hamilton still possessing the pole. First, Hamilton made a mistake and couldn't improve. On TV, you saw both Wolf and Lauda - stone-faced. Couple seconds later, Rosberg also made a mistake, which meant the positions were clear,Hamilton pole, Rosberg 2nd. On TV, you saw both Wolf and Lauda - grinning. Says it all.

The biggest misunderstanding of the whole sport is.... F1 is a constructor championship first and foremost, and a drivers championship second - for the fans, and the merchandise. After all, it's the result of the constructor's championship, which counts in terms of money for the teams.

Back in 2002, the Austrian GP, Barichello and Schumacher (already mentioned above). I think it was after this race when Ferrari's Ross Brawn said something very revealing, when asked about the incident. He said something among the lines of... "What do I care about the fans!"

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 7:06:36 PM

warspite1

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quote:

For all you Brits: Did'nt Hamilton become Swiss and now Monaco?

You know one can go and live abroad without changing nationality?

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Post #: 672

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 7:07:43 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

quote:

For all you Brits: Did'nt Hamilton become Swiss and now Monaco?

Source:https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/2o5mw9/f1_drivers_champions_living_in_tax_exile/

After all of the (in my opinion, unfair) criticism Lewis Hamilton has received in the British press for living as a tax exile in Monaco, I started researching how many of F1's drivers' champions have lived in tax havens.

Unsurprisingly, it's nearly all of them, going back at least as far as Jim Clark, and with an unbroken chain from Alain Prost in 1985 to Lewis Hamilton today.

It's a rough job, but it gives some indication how prolific tax dodging is in F1. If anyone could help fill in the gaps that would be much appreciated.

2008, 2014: Lewis Hamilton. Tax exile, Monaco (previously Switzerland)
2010�2013: Sebastian Vettel. Tax exile, Switzerland
2009: Jenson Button. Tax exile, Monaco (previously Jersey)
2007: Kimi Raikkonen. Tax exile, Switzerland
2005�2006: Fernando Alonso. Former tax exile, Switzerland, now living in Spain
1994�1995, 2000�2004: Michael Schumacher. Tax exile, Switzerland
1998�1999: Mika Hakkinen. Tax exile, Monaco
1997: Jacques Villeneuve. Tax exile, Andorra
1996: Damon Hill. Tax exile, Monaco (formerly Isle of Man?)
1985�1986, 1989, 1993: Alain Prost. Tax exile, Switzerland
1992: Nigel Mansell. Tax exile, Jersey
1988, 1990�1991: Ayrton Senna. Tax exile, Monaco
1981, 1983, 1987: Nelson Piquet. Tax exile, Monaco
1975, 1977, 1984: Niki Lauda. No tax exile?
1982: Keke Rosberg. Tax exile, Monaco
1980: Alan Jones. No tax exile?
1979: Jody Scheckter. Tax exile, Monaco
1978: Mario Andretti. No tax exile?
1976: James Hunt. Tax exile, Monaco
1972, 1974: Emerson Fittipaldi. No tax exile?
1969, 1971, 1973: Jackie Stewart. Tax exile, Switzerland
1970: Jochen Rindt. Tax exile, Switzerland
1962, 1968: Graham Hill. No tax exile?
1967: Denny Hulme. No tax exile?
1959, 1960, 1966: Jack Brabham. No tax exile?
1963, 1965: Jim Clark. Tax exile, Switzerland
1964: John Surtees. No tax exile?
1961: Phil Hill. No tax exile?
1958: Mike Hawthorn. No tax exile?
1951, 1954�1957: Juan Manuel Fangio. No tax exile?
1952�1953: Alberto Ascari. No tax exile?
1950: Giuseppe Farina. No tax exile?

Mat

warspite1

Come now BE - don't go and ruin a perfectly good anti-Lewis argument

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 673

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 7:11:16 PM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Re the last comment:

Brabham/Hulme - Brabham 1966 and 1967

Prost/Lauda - McLaren 1984 and 1985

... Why do you suggest that Alonso may not have won the title without team orders?

1984 and 1985, that's 30 years ago... So it happened twice in the whole F1 history. That's rare me thinks!

warspite1

No, at least three times - you yourself mentioned Prost and Senna. I don't know earlier than the mid-sixties so it may have happened before I don't know. Rare? Well yes it is but I do not know what point you are making, I was just trying to help you out with your assertion.

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Post #: 674

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 7:36:30 PM

Hotschi

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From: Austria
Status: offline

Prost an Senna, so I was righ twith that one.... Not trying to make a point with that, basically I was just wondering, the whole discussion about team orders made me start doing so.

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Post #: 675

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 7:41:45 PM

Hotschi

Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline

About "tax-evasion", there's a load more drivers, past and recent,who live(d) in a "tax-friendly" place, mostly Monaco or Switzerland. Let me see... Alexander Wurz, Gerhard Berger, Ayrton Senna, Nico Rosberg all in Monaco, Michael Schumacher I think lives in Switzerland...

On the other hand, why shouldn't they? When companies can do that (evading taxes) why not individuals. Nothing wrong with that.

< Message edited by Hotschi -- 7/29/2015 8:43:23 PM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 8:34:45 PM

warspite1

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From: England
Status: offline

I said I would come back on the comments re Lewis when I had more time � and am now responding.

Firstly, it is a sad indictment of society that most discussions around Lewis involve anyone not supporting/liking him having to point out that it is not because of his skin colour. I do not presume anyone here to be a mindless, racist piece of filth � so let�s dispense with that immediately; if you don�t like Lewis you don�t like Lewis and fair enough that is your prerogative. I cannot stand Nelson Piquet as a human being but that does not automatically qualify me as a hater of all Brazilians does it?

Having said that, re the comment around the �hood�, �promoting negative stereotypes�, �need to wake up� his choice of attire and being a poor role model � I will count to 10 and pass on this as that is frankly too disappointing for words.

So what are the �charges� against Lewis the racing driver?

The best drivers rarely make mistakes. Yes, I would agree with that wholeheartedly � after all being fast is all well and good but if you can�t keep it on the island, then you are not going to finish, let alone score points, let alone win races and of course let alone win championships. Lewis has won 2 world championships and has 38 race wins (5th all time). Lewis is pretty good at keeping it on the island - and it is fair to say that he has not only won 2 championships because he keeps crashing (as seen below it is only his brilliance that won him the title in 2008). But then we have �whenever a race does not start with Hamilton having all the best options in his camp he almost always makes mistakes�.

That is a very bold comment � bold because it kind of flies in the face of just about every piece of evidence available � and importantly, completely ignores a very relevant mitigant.

So, despite his superb record here is a guy who seems to be often maligned. What evidence is there that this treatment is false?
Well, there is the fact that Mercedes � specifically Niki Lauda, supported by Ross Brawn (both of whom know a thing or two about racing) decided to pay such an enormous sum for his services and convinced the Mercedes board to do so. They have recently increased the amount they pay him to retain him for longer. Fact - Mercedes are not going to employ a poor role model (they have a corporate image to protect) or a crash-waiting-to-happen (they actually want to win world titles).

The majority of F1 �experts� out there rate Alonso as quite simply the best of the current bunch. Who is the only driver to have ever beaten Alonso over a season?

There is also the admission � made on more than one occasion by Fernando Alonso himself � that Lewis, of all the drivers out there, could win in cars that were not the best.

And let�s stick with that comment for a second � particularly in light of the statement about what Lewis does when he hasn�t got the �best options�. Again, it is now accepted in F1 circles that McLaren haven�t produced the best car for many, many years � when was the last time they won the constructors title? Yep � 1998��

Even with Alonso and Lewis driving for them in 2007 they couldn�t win the constructors title. Says a lot about the car � as does the competition in 2007 and 2008. Given what is now known about the relative driver abilities of Raikonnen, Alonso, Massa and Hamilton, I think it�s pretty clear that the Ferrari was easily the better car in those two years. That didn�t stop Lewis winning one title and missing the other by a whisker.

A fair weather pilot? That statement is simply wrong. Did you see the explanation given by the team for the start in Austria? That is just one example why fair weather simply does not apply. Which driver - CLUE: Not Alonso and not Vettel � has won in every season he has competed? And yes that includes in that McLaren in 2009!

Does Lewis make mistakes? Yes, but he, unlike a lot of drivers I could mention � like Vettel � has spent much of his career in far from the best car. Vettel won four drivers championships in a row �should have been five but for all the stupid mistakes he made in 2009. Oh yes, Vettel, when under pressure makes just as many. Oh by the way, last year when suddenly Vettel no longer had far, far and away the best car what happened? He got trashed three wins to nil by a driver totally new to having a front running car. Yes � 3-0�..right�..To put that into context - that is like Koveleinan coming in and beating Lewis 3-0 in 2009!

Not being in the best car means a lot of things � but two in particular. Firstly, having the best car means chances are you are starting in front. There is less chance for crashes, less need to overtake (with all the strain on the car and the chance of accidents that involves). This in turn leads to a more relaxed driving environment which means less mistakes etc etc. The second effect is what the driver does about it? Some can do nothing. They cannot race (Felipe Massa is one such) or their motivation goes. What does Lewis do? He just tries harder � he is a balls-out racer and his fans love him for it.

Lewis� annus horriblis in 2011 was very much a function of the frustration he felt caused by the fact that here he was � a born racer, a superb driver with car control that has to be seen to be believed � and he is tooling round making up the numbers. Well as said above, Lewis is not like that � he tries to overcome the car�s deficiencies - and when forcing a car to go faster than it wants - that can lead to excursions off the island.

So how does Lewis compare to Vettel and others in the sporting department? The comments are clear, Lewis is a bad sport, a cry-baby etc etc.

Does nothing bad Vettel does register? So when in 2012 Vettel caused a crash with Narain Kartikeyan in Malaysia by simply driving into the poor guy, why was it acceptable for the German to slaughter the Indian driver? When Vettel caused a crash between him and his team-mate Webber in Turkey, compromising Red Bull�s race and in the process blaming Webber � that was okay was it?

Lewis is not in the same league as Senna and Schumacher? Well depends which league you are putting him in. How about the bad sport league? Lewis is blamed for whole manner of things but shall I tell you what he has never done? He has never been banned from the Championship for cheating. Schumacher cheated Hill out of a championship in 1994, he tried to cheat Villeneuve out of one in 1997 and he blatantly cheated by parking his car in the circuit at Monaco to stop Alonso getting pole. Senna risked carnage by purposely crashing into Prost at the start of the Japanese Grand Prix - with 24 other fuel-laden cars bearing down on them - to stop him winning a world title. He then held an expletive laden press conference to confirm he�d done it on purpose. How many other drivers would have got away with that? Yeah you�re right � Lewis is not in their league�.

Lewis Hamilton � unlike Senna and Schumacher � has never had outright number 1 status. Not in Schumacher�s league? No, again you are right. Lewis has never commanded that level of support from his team. Lewis has never been given specially made tyres � ONLY FOR HIM. Nope he�s not in Schumacher�s league there either.

As for the cry-baby comment: ever hear Prost and Senna going on about how the other was getting preferential treatment from McLaren and/or Honda blah blah...

There is an old saying in F1 - good guys never win. So how about these good guys that everyone liked? Derek Warwick? Ronnie Peterson? John Watson? or Clay Regazoni? World Championships between them? Er that would be none.....

As for the Mercedes pro Lewis camp�. Yeah this school of thought exists here to � although it�s the Mercedes pro Rosberg camp. Fact is both are boring and totally untrue. Why would Mercedes actively work against a German driver?

quote:

On TV, you saw both Wolf and Lauda - grinning. Says it all.

No it says nothing. As Toto Wolff said, it says that was a moment captured on camera that meant absolutely�.what? They just happened to be smiling � at a joke, at another Mercedes one-two, at the bizarre end to the session, what? One thing it wasn�t was evidence of a conspiracy against Nico Rosberg.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/29/2015 10:49:25 PM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/29/2015 10:25:50 PM

Gilmer

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You seem a little upset, warspite. I have seen people criticize all of those drivers. I think Schumacher is probably better than everyone, simply because of the amount of championships he has won. Doesn't mean I am a fan of his.

There is a similar argument in USA about two basketball players. Michael Jordan and Lebron James. The only thing I can say is Michael Jordan has the hardware. Lebron James does not.

If at the end of his career Lewis does not have as many championships as Schumacher you are going to have to come to grips that most people will see Schumacher as better.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/30/2015 4:06:26 AM

Jagdtiger14

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I used to root against Schumacher every race since he joined Ferrari. But in the end, I came to admire and respect him. The amount of Championships is the measurement to compare across the generations...I guess that would make Fangio #1?

I never said Hamilton was a "poor role model"...I suggested he could be a positive one. I'm sure you would agree with me there is and has been (and not only in F1) a dearth of African ethnic drivers. Maybe they do not like motor racing as opposed to basketball, but Hamilton could be that ambassador to change some of that. Perhaps you might think what Charles Haley told 49'ers black rookies about 6 days ago "too disappointing for words", but that is what I meant concerning Hamilton. Until he does I will not respect him...until maybe he surpasses Schumacher...as of now he hasn't gotten past Vettel.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/30/2015 6:08:33 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

You seem a little upset, warspite. I have seen people criticize all of those drivers. I think Schumacher is probably better than everyone, simply because of the amount of championships he has won. Doesn't mean I am a fan of his.

There is a similar argument in USA about two basketball players. Michael Jordan and Lebron James. The only thing I can say is Michael Jordan has the hardware. Lebron James does not.

If at the end of his career Lewis does not have as many championships as Schumacher you are going to have to come to grips that most people will see Schumacher as better.

warspite1

Not at all upset at a) whether someone "likes" a driver or b) where someone ranks a driver. And criticism where it is due is never an issue.

Upset is probably not the word either - more perplexed that words like fair-weather, cry-baby, not in the same league as, drives without a brain are used to describe someone who - according to those in the know, the F1 insiders, is a remarkable talent (I won't comment further on the personal attacks - that is personal choice and outside of F1).

As has been made clear on this forum, my all-time favourite is Nigel Mansell. But if people do not rate him higher than Senna or Schumacher or Prost and a few others - then no big deal, that is probably right. Nigel was clearly not the greatest ever - or even in the top 5 greatest ever. But NO ONE - unless they are simply blinkered or knows nothing about F1 - can say he was anything other than (in no particular order) the ultimate entertainer in a race car, committed, ballsy/gutsy, incredibly fast, an out and out, heart on the sleeve racer, and brave beyond belief. What did Keke Rosberg say after Silverstone 1985 Qualifying? "I never knew they made balls that big". Here is a guy who discharged himself from hospital with a broken neck so he would not miss a test drive with Lotus. Here is a guy that refused to give up on his debut even though a petrol leak meant he was getting 2nd degree burns as his cockpit became a petrol bath!!

The same applies to Lewis. Lewis has one or two chinks in his armour that will almost certainly stop him from being seen as being in the top 2 of all time (maybe more but we will have to wait to see how things finally pan out before a proper order can be seen for all the current drivers and they can be placed in their proper order) but to suggest he is fair weather? This is only his second season in which he has has anything like the best car. Only his second season. Look at his Championships, wins, poles and fastest laps. He is not that far behind Vettel for goodness sake who has had that dream of an Adrian Newey designed Red Bull-Renault for 5-seasons.

Fact is, despite what I have said about the dark side of Senna and Schumacher, they are No.1 and No.2 (in that order) in the all time list of F1 greats. The only argument is which way around you put them.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/30/2015 7:32:40 AM

AndyG1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: About Vettel vs Hamilton: "He'll (Vettel) have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies."...I assume you are ignoring stats and are focused on the quality of the teams? When Hamilton was with McLaren (teamed with Alonso) he had a car that was capable of winning. Why would Vettel have to go down the path of winning in a bad car just to prove something? Statistically Vettel is the better driver, especially in the ultimate stat: 4-2 in championships.

Absolutely ignoring stats. I've been watching F1 since 1976, and totally understand that if you get in the best car your chances of winning Championships increases massively. So what you NEED to look at is those drivers getting race wins in not so good cars or even drivers in the same team and supposedly the same car.

Now Cartel did have the best car in the 4 seasons he won Championships. The press always told me he was better than Senna and Schumy etc etc, at which point I laughed my head off when he got blown away by Ricciardo in the same car in 2014. Ricciardo took tOOK THE 'MICK' out of him all season long, that pass at Monza when he went outside, braked slightly, swapped sides and outbraked him on the inside - wow! Made Vettel look ordinary - at which point Vettel wasn't in the best of moods and always looked miffed.

Do you dislike Rosberg or Vettel or any driver because they look miffed at being beaten? Because they all do. They thin they are the best so they'rd not going to be jumping for joy when they lose.

Point is, not in the best car he got destroyed by a driver who nearly didn't get the seat.

Now look at the likes of Senna, Hamilton, Alonso, Mansell - a lot more WINS when not in the best car. That is the real stat.

Now in 2015 Vettel is showing he can do it when not in the best car. That is what I'm waiting to see in the long term.

On another note, I can vouch for dual citizenship. Born and raised in UK, left in2007, Aussie citizen in 2015. 2 passports, and I'm rooting for England in the cricket right now. Just because you move somewhere else it doesn't mean you lose your identity - I'm British, end of!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 7/30/2015 5:42:31 PM

Jagdtiger14

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Yeah, Hamilton likely will never be seen in the top two of all time...not even the top 5...of course he is still racing, so anything is possible. I suppose Fangio doesn't count?

AndyG1: You have to define "not so good cars"...if you mean everything after the constructors champion, then be aware that some of the #2 constructors were very competitive to the eventual champion. For Hamilton...2007, 2008, 2010, and 2012 he was in a car that was just as good or very close to equal as the Constructors Champion. If you are going to compile stats that way, then exclude the #2 constructor if the points are close, and see what you come up with. I would not say that Hamilton was in a "not so good car" in 2007, 08, 10, 12. His other years he had a total of 6 wins, half of that in 2011 which was a pretty decent car as well.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/1/2015 6:38:02 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: About Vettel vs Hamilton: "He'll (Vettel) have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies."...I assume you are ignoring stats and are focused on the quality of the teams? When Hamilton was with McLaren (teamed with Alonso) he had a car that was capable of winning. Why would Vettel have to go down the path of winning in a bad car just to prove something? Statistically Vettel is the better driver, especially in the ultimate stat: 4-2 in championships.

Do you dislike Rosberg or Vettel or any driver because they look miffed at being beaten? Because they all do. They thin they are the best so they'rd not going to be jumping for joy when they lose.

Now in 2015 Vettel is showing he can do it when not in the best car. That is what I'm waiting to see in the long term.

warspite1

Re the first point 100% agree. One of the reasons I never really took to David Coulthard is the German Grand Prix in 1995. He should have won that race but compounded the fact he didn't with a line that was just unacceptable - particularly coming from a young driver at the start of his career.

He said something like "I guess Schumacher wanted it more than me today". Just NO. Can you imagine a Nige or Lewis or Vettel or Alonso or ANY of the Grand Prix champions saying such a thing? When they lose they HURT.

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/1/2015 7:39:46 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/1/2015 6:49:02 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: You have to define "not so good cars"...if you mean everything after the constructors champion, then be aware that some of the #2 constructors were very competitive to the eventual champion. For Hamilton...2007, 2008, 2010, and 2012 he was in a car that was just as good or very close to equal as the Constructors Champion. If you are going to compile stats that way, then exclude the #2 constructor if the points are close, and see what you come up with. I would not say that Hamilton was in a "not so good car" in 2007, 08, 10, 12. His other years he had a total of 6 wins, half of that in 2011 which was a pretty decent car as well.

warspite1

I've just got around to looking at this and thought I would glance at one season and take it from there. I started with 2012 and that is where I ended.

You say that some #2 cars were very competitive to the eventual champion and that for Lewis the 2012 car was just as good or very close to equal as the constructors champion.

Have a look at that season. McLaren were not even 2nd - they were 3rd.
McLaren, despite having Jenson and Lewis driving, AND Webber having a pretty atrocious season in the best car, were almost 100 points away from the Red Bull. If Webber was up to the job that gap would have been much bigger.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/1/2015 9:33:12 PM

Gilmer

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quote:

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.

I would not put too much in to Ricciardo doing better than Vettel one season. I think we all know if you don't like the way a car feels, you can not be competitive. I think Vettel hated the way the car felt and that was why he was having trouble. I think he even mentioned several times he hated the way it felt.

I agree with everything else you said about Vettel. He is showing a lot of consistency this year.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 3:34:26 AM

Jagdtiger14

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2012 constructors points:
Red Bull: 460 (won 8 races)
Ferrari: 400 (won 3 races)
McLaren: 378 (won 7 races)
Lotus: 303

Then it falls off quite a bit after that with Mercedes at 142. If you look at the season as a whole, there were 3 races McLaren won where the team mate retired from the race...2 races McLaren got 2nd and the team mate retired, a 4th/Ret and a 10th/Ret. Those are a lot of missed points with the potential for the other driver to have a podium finish. There was also a 1/16, and a 3/14.

McLaren most definitely had a competitive car in 2012. That being said, I disagree with trying to find some kind of metric (because you cant) to judge a driver in a "bad" car vs the team that wins the Constructor's Championship. You still have to race the race...there are lots of things that can go wrong even when you are lapping the back of the field. The only true measurement is the ultimate result.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 5:49:06 AM

AndyG1

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Senna, Donington Park, 1993. That's how to win in an inferior car. Vettel did that for Torso Rosso at Monza for his first win. The foundations are here, but he isn't no Senna:).

Sorry for the typos in previous posts, it's mobile typing - lol

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 6:47:07 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

quote:

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.

I would not put too much in to Ricciardo doing better than Vettel one season. I think we all know if you don't like the way a car feels, you can not be competitive. I think Vettel hated the way the car felt and that was why he was having trouble. I think he even mentioned several times he hated the way it felt.

I agree with everything else you said about Vettel. He is showing a lot of consistency this year.

warspite1

The top racing drivers - and we have not been talking about mere Grand Prix winners and even some World Champions - we are talking about the best of the best, are judged on their careers. So if we go directly to the top, Ayrton Senna, and we look at his entire F1 career then what do we see? The odd mistake of course - e.g. the drive in Australia (can't remember the year) when he drove much like Lewis did in Hungary last Sunday. The rumour was Andrea De Cesaris nicked his crash helmet and drove the car instead that day!! or the Monaco Grand Prix in 1988 or the Italian Grand Prix of 87 and 88. But overall, the career is one of success, followed by success, followed by more success. A career in which he took cars (Toleman, Lotus, one or two McLaren's) into places they had no right to be. He destroyed careers of his team mates such was the gap with which he beat them. There were no "off-seasons" no "ohhh that car is not to my liking" - he simply got on with the job - and that job was never less than remarkable.

So Lewis - as we have discussed over the posts - has, for whatever reason, had a poor season - and 2011 was a shocker. That is held against him - and perhaps rightly so. But then once again we have this unfair comparison between Lewis and Vettel. Lewis does not get away with 2011 but Vettel can walk away from 2014 unscathed?

In 2014, after his team had given him 5 years of an astounding car*, Vettel suddenly had a car that was not the best. It wasn't quite to his liking. It's not like he was suddenly fed a dog of a car - his team mate won three times with it - he just "didn't fancy it".... So, while getting paid on his multi-million dollar contract what does he do? Well for whatever reason he spends the season in a strop and driving like a number 2. Even Christian Horner got fed up with his man and publically said "he's just got to get on with it".

All I am asking for here is a bit of fairness, a bit of consistency in the treatment being meted out. What is good for Lewis when judging him - should be good for Vettel when judging his ability.

Sorry but Senna, Schumacher (and yes I am not including that ill-fated "comeback") or Prost NEVER had an off season. They were class drivers - the best of the best, they were metronomic. They didn't decide one season they couldn't be arsed because they didn't like the car.

* Can you imagine what the record books would look like if Ayrton Senna had been given Vettel's cars and of course the modern day reliability to go with them?? Put it this way, Schumacher would not have the most World Championships or Grand Prix wins that's for sure....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2015 8:51:56 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 7:18:50 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

2012 constructors points:
Red Bull: 460 (won 8 races)
Ferrari: 400 (won 3 races)
McLaren: 378 (won 7 races)
Lotus: 303

If you look at the season as a whole, there were 3 races McLaren won where the team mate retired from the race...

warspite1

But a car's reliability is all part of it!

Nigel Mansell would not only have won the 1987 World Championship at a canter but he would have won in 1986 too if reliability was not an issue. Alain Prost would be 1982 World Champion on the same basis - and there are loads more examples.

So what did Autocourse - the F1 motor racing bible - have to say about Lewis in 2012? Did they support the notion he had a fully competitive car that he failed to land the World Championship in because of all the mistakes he made?

'...he was scuppered by factors beyond his control. This was a campaign that contrasted sharply with the error-ridden mess of 2011, for it's execution was largely flawless on his part, but the team let him down on a couple of occasions and his car did so with greater frequency still. Singapore and Abu Dhabi were races he should have won easily but for gearbox failure and sudden loss of fuel pressure. There's a belief that modern Grand Prix cars are unbreakable but one of them certainly wasn't'.

quote:

McLaren most definitely had a competitive car in 2012.

And I wouldn't disagree - it just wasn't in the same class as the Red Bull!!

Nigel had the competitive car in 1987 - and if the damn thing had been reliable and had come home in Monaco, Portugal, Hungary and Italy he would have been World Champion. But it didn't so he wasn't - nothing to do with driver mistakes - just the car letting the driver down.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2015 12:26:53 PM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 2:50:03 PM

Jagdtiger14

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When did Formula One begin? 1950 or 1984?

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