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Questions - 8/27/2015 1:46:25 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		1-Is this possible to set, in the editor, the number of cities in a random game?
2-How do I change the VP value for a city or location in random games?
3-is this possible to have more variety of cities in a random game?
Post #: 1
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 3:23:00 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		regarding 3:

I saw in the rulevars that there are some city types that can be set to location numbers. Currently they are all set to 0, meaning city, i believe. But they could be set at individual settings i think for different sized cities.

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Post #: 2
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 5:53:20 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

1-Is this possible to set, in the editor, the number of cities in a random game?
2-How do I change the VP value for a city or location in random games?
3-is this possible to have more variety of cities in a random game?


What you might want to consider is a final scripting based randomization on game start.

Scripting would be able to adress all 3 points.

Best wishes,
Vic


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(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 3
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 6:36:32 PM   
davebob

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2014
Status: offline 		It is pretty easy to edit random maps prior to start. It was my first attempt using the editor.move, add, subtract all terrain as I please. Course, I'm sure you want to change the random map generator parameters, however, for those newbs like me, editing the maps at start is simple, and tripled my enjoyment of the game.

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Post #: 4
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 7:50:13 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The VP value can be changed individually by city in the editor after game is made. I assume in the set up file for the master file it can be set also same with city sizes be aware that you won't be able to control what size city goes where so one side might end up with all the large cities or all the small cities.

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Post #: 5
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 7:54:54 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I think what Bombur is after is something that would go well in hand with his bombur mod. That is something that assigns VPs according to city sizes presumably, without editing, but done automatically.

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Post #: 6
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 9:42:40 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		There are 3 settings for city size, well maybe 4 cant remember. Don't recall any thing connected to city size that set VP value but it would be in the master file if it were there. If you could set VP to city size that MIGHT control how many of what kind of cities each side got at start.

I set more then one city size once and ended up with opponents with more and less vp then me at star though.

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Post #: 7
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 9:44:48 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		As Bombur probably knows, it is possible to modify cities in the Editor after the game is set up but before one starts to play. I did change a city to a town "accidentally" in my last game while playing around with the editor.

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Post #: 8
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 10:22:24 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		True, it´s possible to edit a map, but I would like to see if it could be done in the map generation process without need of further edition.

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Post #: 9
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 10:44:42 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I did not see a means to tell the game what VPs to give to cities so I am thinking it is hard wired? 4 for capitol 1 for all others. That means when you assign the other 3 city sizes you may end up with opponents with smaller cities and some with larger but the same VP values. I just did that and will test it out.

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Post #: 10
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 10:52:01 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		A quick check just going around the map, it looked like there is a mechanic to assign the same number of the different types of cities to each regime. However the 4th type of city did not appear at all , all I had were the first 3 and the Capitol. The 1st type is more numerous then the 2nd type and I believe the 3rd type was less numerous then the 2nd.

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Post #: 11
RE: Questions - 8/27/2015 11:31:59 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Nice of you to test the stuff Twotribes :) I am learning, which I like.

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Post #: 12
RE: Questions - 8/28/2015 12:01:41 AM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		In a standard ATG random game a capital is worth 4 points and all others cities 1 point. In Bombur's mod the capital is worth only 1 point. Not sure why that is.

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Post #: 13
RE: Questions - 8/29/2015 12:38:24 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		-I didn´t make any intentional change to VP of cities. Of course, it would be very easy to edit these values. However, my intention would be to see if we could create scenarios with more or less Urban density. With the parameters set in the map creator and my own map scale, we see that the countries have very sparse cities.
-Two Tribes: I always saw only two types of cities in random maps, the capitol and the cities.

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Post #: 14
RE: Questions - 8/29/2015 2:13:08 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		That's because a long while back Vic changed the master file to only 2 cities. In the master file you can set up to 4 cities but only 3 will show up besides your capitol. Right now in the master file all 4 extra cities are set to just be a city.

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Post #: 15
RE: Questions - 9/12/2015 12:33:37 PM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		Please explain how you do this. Thanks...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

A quick check just going around the map, it looked like there is a mechanic to assign the same number of the different types of cities to each regime. However the 4th type of city did not appear at all , all I had were the first 3 and the Capitol. The 1st type is more numerous then the 2nd type and I believe the 3rd type was less numerous then the 2nd.



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Post #: 16
RE: Questions - 9/12/2015 7:42:52 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		To add different sized cities before making a scenario go to the master file and go to scen settings in that go to rule vars. Once there rule 410 is the capitol size and 413 through 416 are the other 4 cities size. Like i said I could not get the 416 setting to fire. Most cities will be 413 a few will be 414 and less will be 415. Depending on the size of the map and how many cities are there. It appeared when I checked that it DOES regulate per regime so no one gets shafted on city size. Be further aware that if you add or change city sizes the production will be blank till set in the new cities. That is setable in master file too cant remember where though maybe in the same place?

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Post #: 17
RE: Questions - 9/13/2015 1:41:33 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you, Two Tribes, it worked well, now I have 4 sizes of cities. Next step is how to give them different number of victory points, because, in my mod, it´s related to manpower. Now, we have 4 points for capital and 1 point for every other city. My idea is to have 4 points for capital, 3 points for major city, 2 points for city and 1 point for minor city.

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Post #: 18
RE: Questions - 9/13/2015 2:09:08 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Surely you can make an event that runs round 1 only (BlockEvent at the end of it), and gives Different LocTypes different VPs? At least that is what I would do.

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Post #: 19
RE: Questions - 9/13/2015 8:04:06 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		It worked very well, ernie, thank you. Now we have more kinds of cities and more realistic demography and armies size.

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Post #: 20
RE: Questions - 9/13/2015 8:25:07 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		My pleasure :)

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 21
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 12:26:48 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		I noticed however, a curious bug, it seems the VP value necessary for each scenario is hardcoded, so the game is resulting in premature victory, because the amount of VP´s for each regime was increased, thus exceeding the necessary for a victory. I´m not sure how I could fix it.

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Post #: 22
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 12:38:52 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Hmmmm...curious, the VP is really hardcoded, it changes when you create the map, so, in theory, you could just change it when the map is created, but I would like to see how I can avoid this.

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Post #: 23
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 5:55:50 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Curious, indeed...Let me go back to the drawing board, for a few...

EDIT: I looked at a few things, made a small change here and there... and i think it did it.

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 9/14/2015 7:37:52 AM >

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 24
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 11:49:00 AM   
Tac2i


Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline 		Please consider doing a short tutorial so the rest of us can learn how to do this. Thanks...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Curious, indeed...Let me go back to the drawing board, for a few...

EDIT: I looked at a few things, made a small change here and there... and i think it did it.



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Post #: 25
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 4:13:34 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, ernie´s fix didn´t work. It seems there is a hardcoded feature. VP needed for victory are calculated from 80% of total VP given for each map size (this value is fixed too). So you need, for instance, 14VP for small maps, 32 VP for large maps and 134 VP for unplayably large maps. When you create a map using ernie´s code, you have an increase in total VP, but VP needed for a victory is still the same. It is close to 50% of total VP. So, this bug affects only 2 player games (to some extent three player games) and it becomes less important as the number of players increase. It can easily be fixed by changing the number of VP´s needed for victory in the setting screen, after you create the map. So, considering how ernie´s code resulted in a improvement in city diversity and also resulted on more realistic countries (from demographics POV, and considering the manpower calculation I´m using), then I´m ready to live with this bug, but I think that, in random maps, there should be a way to set victory conditions as a % of total VP.

(in reply to Tac2i)
Post #: 26
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 9:10:06 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Here is a table of total VP (mod) and VP need to win (Bombur mod) and map size

Map size Total VP (Bombur mod) VP to win (%)
Small 33 14 (42%)
Medium 58 22 (38%)
Large 103 38 (36,8%)
X-Large 186 59 (31,7%)
XX-Large 382 121 (31,6%)
Unp. Large 508 163 (32%)

So it seems the bug is worse than I estimated, but also very easy to fix. Now I must understand if these values are reproductible, and if they are related to map variables (these values are for 2 player games and map with no water)

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 27
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 9:16:54 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Well, for 2 player small maps it seems we have always 14 points to win and 33 total VP
Hmmm, when we have a 5 player small map, then VP to win increases to 24, while total VP increases to 45-49 (I found some variability in total points but VP for victory seems to be fixed). So I see no trouble with a 5 player game in a small map.

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Post #: 28
RE: Questions - 9/14/2015 9:23:43 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		For different numbers of players in a small map, we have different VP to win, and more total VP, so the bug becomes less and less serious as the number of players increase
For 3 players in a small map, always 19 VP, for 40-45 total VP
For 5 players in a small map, always 24 VP, for 45-50 total VP
Total VP is variable (probaly due to modding) but VP to win is a fixed value

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 29
RE: Questions - 9/15/2015 3:31:20 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well, I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat. Meaning you have several options at your disposal.

1). Don't let VPs be tied to cities, in another way than the random map lets it, and instead tie manpower to city location types.

2). Ask Vic to make an ExecSetWinningVP, where the input could be a percentage of the total on map VPs, and then use it in a pre-event (like any event pre-executed by event 1).

3). Ask Vic to make the VPWin calculation after pre-event has been executed (the Pre-event is defined by rulevar in case anyone was wondering).

So there you have at least 3 options for a course of action. Of course, one of them only requires someone to do the coding, and that could be anyone, in theory, while the other two requires Vics attention.

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 30
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