AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back.

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AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 10:39:05 AM

AllenK

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Suckers for punishment that we are, we are starting a new game. This time including oil rules, which will be a first for me. On that basis, I thought it would be prudent to have another go at defending the free peoples of the world from the evil alliance and play the Allies.

These are the optional rules we will be using.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 10:43:02 AM

AllenK

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Initial Lend-Lease arrangements.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 10:47:43 AM

AllenK

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US entry: 2 chits in Ge/It and 1 in Jap.

US scrapped units.

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< Message edited by AllenK -- 8/31/2015 12:01:12 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 11:04:03 AM

AllenK

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USSR Scrapped.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 2:41:46 PM

Jagdtiger14

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"Oil be back"...haha!...good name for the AAR!

BTW...if you thought the last game was balanced in the way of options, etc...oil is a pro-Allied option...so you might want to counter-balance that with something(s) pro-Axis?

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 8/31/2015 3:44:55 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 2:54:18 PM

AllenK

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Hi, Jagdtiger. I think adding the Variable Reorg cost has been brought in as a more pro axis option.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 4:24:27 PM

yvesp

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You will both of you find serious differences in the way of playing.

First of all, you'll want to put synth oil on production as soon as possible. That's important for all countries, even these which are supposed to have plenty of oil, with the notable exception of the USSR. The USA and Commonwealth have many oil guzzling units, and you don't want to have to limit your production because of moving units.

Second, you won't be moving fleets as you did in the previous AAR. The German is wary about using fleets, which are great consummers. Italy more so. As the Commonwealth you will want to move only what you feel is the minimal number of ships needed for a given mission: you'll tailor to the task... You'll also likely not ground strike as much as you did. Is is that much necessary to try that ground strike during rain, with that 2 rated bomber ? hum, 10% chance to disorg the enemy, 100% chance of using 0.1 oil: is disorganizing that unit at a 100% chance of succes worth 1 oil ?

Just count the amount of oil that the whole British fleet might use in one turn! It is staggering!

Last but not least, you'll have to learn:
1) to care even more with your HQs: a disorganized armor HQ uses up to 0.6 oil! Even an inf HQ oil cost is high enough to be careful. So you will be less inclined to reorganize units if you're not sure that it will serve some significant purpose.
2) not to reorganize all your units: using 1.45 oil costs 1, using 1.5 oil costs 2... That's a hell of a difference.

Ah, one last word: The Chinese have one oil and only one, and no production! This will have to last for some time, possibly the whole war. The Chinese can only reorg its units consistently by using that above rule: You can reorg 0.45 and not use your oil. If you use it, you can no more reorg oil using units until you put your hands on more... So be carefull with it: it is a prime target for the Japanese: lose it to strat bombing, and your HQs become much less useful, and possibly sitting duck!

Oh, and building plane upon plane upon plane serves no purpose if your planes cannot fly! So you'll have to set a reasonnable target for the number of such units, and favor quality over quantity. At some point, you'll retire that 3 rated fighter rather than fly it. Playing with pilots is already a good reason for that, playing with oil makes that reason even more commpelling.

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 8/31/2015 5:26:53 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 4:45:58 PM

AllenK

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Thanks Yvesp,

Useful tips to bear in mind.

Also, thank you for your appreciative comment at the end of the last AAR.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 5:30:35 PM

yvesp

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Oh, and I forgot: a great way to keep oil even while using your naval units is... just to let them patrol!
Seriously!

Ships not disorganized don't use oil.
If you send them back at the end of the turn, they become disorganize and will use oil. If you let them patrol, they won't...

Too bad that the real world is not like that!

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 6:31:52 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Italy scraps all planes, one artillery and slow transporter

Edit: Italy has weaker bomber that last time. Let's hope Germany has equally good bombers than last time (all the best).

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< Message edited by Mayhemizer -- 8/31/2015 7:48:01 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 7:02:08 PM

AllenK

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Nationalist Chinese scrapped.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 7:39:36 PM

AllenK

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CW scrapped

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 7:47:51 PM

Jagdtiger14

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What yvesp wrote...all of it very wise! I would add: Put the Chinese oil way, way back...as far west as possible. O-chits are an even better value now...you build them with regular resources and can re-org those oil expensive HQ's.

AllenK: Still playing with Cruisers in Flame?

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 8:28:29 PM

AlbertN

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Oil is indeed a good rule - and yes I agree Alliees should build too Oil Rigs, but that is just me.
Not nice when USA cannot produce all of its stuff when they start to move fleet around, and strat bomb, and tac. bomb and use HQ to reorg (I think I've seen a 9 oil used in '43 by UK, Germany and USA at some given point).

But I never spare oil when it comes to use HQs, to reorganize is precious or to have that +2 on a combat and avoid a loss ...

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 8:44:40 PM

yvesp

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BTW, be careful to save oil from the first turn.
You need it later.

As the USA you can (when the time comes and you have the right option) send oil to the Commonwealth, which it stores for you in Canada. Call it strategic reserves in back of the American taxpayer... Both countries (USAn Commonwealth) wll be very happy to have all this oil stored when it comes to moving the whole army. And don't forget that 1 oil saved can also be used for production: saving 1 oil when the production multiple is 0.25 may be smart... The USA definitivly don't have enough resources for full production and full usage of all their oil using units when they enter the war: having some saved oil for the factories may also come handy.

Also, you'll learn that winter turns are also a good time to prepare oil reserves in advance for the upcoming summer offensive!

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 8/31/2015 8:52:11 PM

AllenK

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Thanks fellows for all the advice.

French scrapped.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/1/2015 6:56:19 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Japan scrap

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/1/2015 6:57:50 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Germany scrap

Germany breaks down 4-4 INF into 2x 1-4 INF div and 5-4 MOT into 2-4 MOT div and 1-4 MOT div.

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< Message edited by Mayhemizer -- 9/1/2015 8:38:12 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/1/2015 7:42:15 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Germany declares war on Poland! US gets mad as usual (roll 6).

Most German units are again in western front.

Italy sets units in Libya to western front also.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/1/2015 7:46:44 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Southern China

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/1/2015 7:47:01 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Norhern China

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 3:23:28 PM

yvesp

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I know that the premature attack on France has its proponents. Yet, I find it both ahistorical and quite a gamble.
It is also very cheesy, because it also relies on the rules that any French successful counter-attack (or advance) in Germany is going to pay off much more than what could get lost in said counterattack (due to the increase in production multiplier.)

I rarely see any benefit for it: when playing correctly with Germany (barring bad luck) you should see the fall of France in summer 40, which is enough time to send the army back east if that's the strategy; the question is: what do you intend to do with the few turns you can potentially gain ? Usually, in 40, Germany is not strong enough because it misses critical HQs to enter far into Russia and at the same time secure France (where, lacking supply, the British can easily land).

Note that I once had the hard surrise of a DoW by Russia in Jan/Feb 40, because the allies caught the initiative and the garrison ratio was not met by Germany (units were still in Polish ZOCs, negating their garrison value): that makes for a very, very nasty situation for the Germans...

Well, that's just me...

< Message edited by yvesp -- 9/2/2015 4:25:04 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 3:40:01 PM

Courtenay

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I don't like the abandonment of Chengchow and Tungkwan. Most of the successful Japanese attacks on China I have seen in AARs have involved heavy attacks on the Communists; giving Chengchow away makes this much easier for the Japanese. This is particular true since the Communists have made the mistake of not picking the 8th Route Army.

(A mistake I make two thirds of time, of course.)

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 5:00:44 PM

yvesp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I don't like the abandonment of Chengchow and Tungkwan. Most of the successful Japanese attacks on China I have seen in AARs have involved heavy attacks on the Communists; giving Chengchow away makes this much easier for the Japanese. This is particular true since the Communists have made the mistake of not picking the 8th Route Army. (A mistake I make two thirds of time, of course.)

True. I did not see this. Of course, the Japanese must pay for every hex they capture, with the exception of clear hexes not accross rivers... The reason for this is that attrition kills the Japanese: too many land units to replace means that Japan cannot build its navy and/or air force to the required level.

In the same way, I'd put a unit in the Mufu mountains.
No pain, no gain...

< Message edited by yvesp -- 9/2/2015 6:01:51 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 5:15:58 PM

Jagdtiger14

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yvesp: Recently some of us went through a lengthy discussion about "Fall Gelb", and even had a couple of test set ups and run throughs, so I wont start the debate all over again. FYI: I happen to be a big proponent of Fall Gelb.

To answer your questions and comments: As to its historicity (if that's a word)...the Germans actually did consider it...hence the name "Fall Gelb". The fact that it didn't happen should not restrict it from happening in WiF. Wargames, especially strategic ones are not reinactments. Everything is a gamble in WiF, which is why its so fun to replay it over and over. The gamble of France lasting into 1941 is far worse to me. Yes, France CAN be taken down by the end of J/A with a competent German player, and assuming you have no die roll disasters, and use both O-chits. Mayhemizer performed a pretty good Fall Gelb last game if you want to take a look at that AAR.

I don't think its cheesy at all that Germany gets the multiplier for a French advance...if you want to look at history as you mentioned above, did not France actually move into Saarland?...and then stopped, and then was itself counter attacked at great loss compared to German losses?

The benefit: 1. Time. This is the most valuable commodity in WiF. What to do with that time?...that depends on your over all strategy, but the most important thing it does is give you more options (which is the best type of plan). You don't need to assume something in USSR...there is Gibraltar (perhaps invasion of Spain if Gibraltar can not be taken by invasion), Malta, Africa, the Balkans, etc... 2. Economics. Save 1 O-chit for sure, perhaps both. 15-30 BP's are hard to come by in 1940. Plus, the sooner you take out France, the more income you have. Not just from French factories/resources, but also perhaps with factories/resources you gained from what you did with that extra time. Also, possibly fewer losses since you are facing a weaker France/CW early on. 3. Disaster. Avoid the dreaded possibility that France might survive into 1941...which I have seen happen at least twice in my face to face games...once to me, which is why I turned whole heartedly to Fall Gelb since that game.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 6:00:07 PM

AllenK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I don't like the abandonment of Chengchow and Tungkwan. Most of the successful Japanese attacks on China I have seen in AARs have involved heavy attacks on the Communists; giving Chengchow away makes this much easier for the Japanese. This is particular true since the Communists have made the mistake of not picking the 8th Route Army. (A mistake I make two thirds of time, of course.)

Hi Courteney,

Can't say I'm exactly chuffed about it either, especially Chengchow. The trouble is, in my relative inexperience, I can't readily see what I would trade off to mount the defence. A viable defence would take quite a few units. The Japanese, setting up second, can then simply ignore it and advance elsewhere. A token defence, unless the Japanese are unlucky with their die roll, simply presents them their first kills in addition to the city.

Advice for future games appreciated.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 9/2/2015 7:30:24 PM >

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 6:00:57 PM

yvesp

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Not going into a long discussion, but I would just mention that!
1) under the current rules, that attack should have upped German production by a .25 production factor. This would make the real september/october period to have been more productive than the november/december period. I'm not aware that this indeed happened: hence the German player can leave quite weak places in his initial defense against France and know he won't suffer any consequences. That is what I find cheesy, not the idea of attacking west.
2) the fact that such a plan did exist in real life (but was rejected) is obviously not enough to make it acceptable in the game. After all there was a very serious plan to unite France and the Commonwealth (but it failed); indeed I'd like to see that option open, to once test that alternate history path. Alas, this path is closed...

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 6:30:02 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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I was not sure when I started to set German units if I go for "Fall Gelb" or not. I decided to give another try, without attacking all European countries while France is still standing...

In China I have same plan as last time (it will remain secret for some time). But this time I will be focused on my target, not shoot from the hip (and change plans immediately when I see an opportunity) like I usually do.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 6:57:02 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Poland protects capital and Germany is ready to attack.

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RE: AllenK vs Mayhemizer III: Oil be back. - 9/2/2015 7:11:14 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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S/O 39 Axis 1

Germany declares war on Poland.

Germany and Japan land, Italy combined.

He112 fly to North Sea box 2.

Italy takes transporter loaded with Mech to East Med. Later Mech will land to Tripoli.

Japanese G3M2 bombs factories in Chungking with no result (roll 1).

Germany launches two ground strikes and Japan one.

Polish units are not hit in Lodz.