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a story and a question about buying troops - 3/21/2003 2:31:39 PM

mandreads

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/7/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline

Hello!

A little preface before the questions...

I've played a few scenarios with a friend, all of them were small random battles, advance missions. Last two were interesting. In the first battle I played brits in north-africa. I bought a company of infantry, trucks to hurry them to the middle vhexes. Then some armored cars and couple of light tanks. I thought that with those trucks I would be the first in the vhexes and then I would smoke the area with infantry and drive the tanks and armored cars to flank the enemy advance.

This ended up being a terrible massacre. Enemy had halftracks on top of the hill before I was there. My trucks with the infantry were pinned in a wide open valley, this happened in the 1st turn. Few immobilized, few destroyed, few in tact.

2nd turn I drove in the armored cars and light tanks to help the poor guys. Then another surprise, two heavy tanks rolled up behind the hill. I had nothing that I could use to destroy them. So in turn 3 things got really ugly. Rest of the battle I was trying to retreat so that at least some men would survive. (Thinking now I should've hit F9 at that point.)

On northern side of the map the enemy had one(!) sniper in the area and he pinned down three of my squads so that they could not advance in 4 turns. After that I saw a halftrack from middle hill coming that way so I backed up.

Thinking afterwards the battle was lost already in the purchase phase. It was a small battle and I thought that the opponent wouldn't invest in expensive tanks. Another mistake I made was that I didn't bring in any mortars. Smoke screen on my advance would've worked wonders.

But then the second battle. Small random advance mission. I am brits again. I learned from the last battle, and I bought two heavy tanks. (Actually I bought US army tanks, I don't remember what was it but it had two big guns). Remaining points I buy few inf platoons and three halftracks.

Basically it was the same thing as in 1st battle but this time it was the other way around. My tanks chewed up opponents halftracks, engineers and the AA gun that he had.

Now the question: What are good guidelines to follow in buying units? What are the units that you never leave home without them? What units pack the "biggest bang for the buck"? What are good ratios betweend armor, infantry and artillery?

Also the one HQ unit, 6 men costing 200 points?! Is it worth keeping in pbem battles (C&C off)? Why don't I just sell it and buy some decent armor with the points? I know about the morale bonus it has, but is there anything else besides that.

Then some general questions. Do you play mainly random battles or scenarios? Which is more fun? What are good point amounts to play with (I read that in about 3000pts you get a decent force)?

I once started a small battle between finland and russia. After the automatically bought HQ unit finland had like 50 points left!? It was enough for a total of one MG half platoon. T'was strange.

Post #: 1

- 3/21/2003 4:15:11 PM

Kemper Von Boyd

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/12/2003
Status: offline

I think that SPWAW isn't at its best in small battles like that. The difference of having one armorer car or tank might make or break the battle.

I have one rule of thumb when it comes to buying units: buy "dumb". Don't try to be clever, for example don't buy units entirely based on your battle plan (like when there is a small village with victory hexes, one shouldn't buy any Brummb�rs to deal with it). The pbem battles I've played (with H2H) have all been with about 4000 points, which is enough to buy a company of tanks, a couple of companies of infantry, some mortars and artillery, ack-ack and maybe some AT-guns. A mix like this gives flexibility, and that is what you need. Too detailed plans tend to break up when the enemy does something unexpected.

Of course one should take into consideration things like terrain, visibility and such and buy accordingly, but that alone shouldn't dictate your choices.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 2

- 3/21/2003 7:11:11 PM

Belisarius

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline

Individual tanks can always be defeated. One or two heavies are not a problem. Your bad luck in your first example was that you had the British at your disposal. Good fighters, but extremely hard to get in the right direction under fire. A sniper is more than enough to tie up a platoon. ;)

Why you tried to rush a central part of the battlefield w/out armored support is beyond me, but my point is still that the prescence of a few tanks is not an impossible task for infantry. (think ants vs. grasshopper here - they're many! A tank can't take all of them on!)

And don't forget - in SP:WAW, smoking is good for you. :)

_____________________________

Got StuG?

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 3

Re: a story and a question about buying troops - 3/21/2003 9:03:18 PM

Gary Tatro

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mandreads
[B]Hello!
Now the question: What are good guidelines to follow in buying units? What are the units that you never leave home without them? What units pack the "biggest bang for the buck"? What are good ratios betweend armor, infantry and artillery?

Also the one HQ unit, 6 men costing 200 points?! Is it worth keeping in pbem battles (C&C off)? Why don't I just sell it and buy some decent armor with the points? I know about the morale bonus it has, but is there anything else besides that.

Then some general questions. Do you play mainly random battles or scenarios? Which is more fun? What are good point amounts to play with (I read that in about 3000pts you get a decent force)?

I once started a small battle between finland and russia. After the automatically bought HQ unit finland had like 50 points left!? It was enough for a total of one MG half platoon. T'was strange. [/B][/QUOTE]

HQ unit is very important, if your force moral breaks and you don't have a HQ and all the VH's are taken you lose the game.
Also help rally's at the end of the turn.
Can be used a substitute FO.
Needed or you artillary will be out of contact most of the game.

Most people feel a small game is 2000-3000 points
Meduim game 4000-7000 points
Large 8000-12000 point
Huge 12000 and up

The reason you had such a problem in the game you were destroyed in, was you lost it with you initial purchase all tanks and infantry. If you had had a platoon of Good ATG's you could have cheewed up though's Heavy tanks and half tracks easily. Combined arms is that, combined arms, it consists of seven component parts
1)Recon
2)Infantry
3)Armor
4)Artillary
5)Anti-Tank Guns
6)Anti-Air Craft guns
7)Air-craft
I try to incorporate all of these aspects into my purchase. Now almost all the time there are limits on artillary and air-craft. This is due to them being extremely powerful in the game and can be unbalancing. So with this in mind my general force composition is this.
1)Recon-------------------10-20% (never under estimate the value of knowing where the enemy is)
2)Infantry-----------------30-50%
3)Armor--------------------20-40%
4)Artillary------------------10%-limited
5)Anti-Tank Guns---------2-4 platoons (generally the best and smallest available, with transport depending on visibility)
6)Anti-Air Craft guns-----2-4 platoons (generally mobilized)
7)Air-craft------------------0-2 sections -limited

I tend to be more of an infantry man versus an armor guy so other peoples composition will be different. The composition varies depending upon terrain and visibility. So it is always important to preview the map and find out what the visibility is. Hope this helps happy playing.

PS. And don't forget whoever is player one goes first and will almost always get to the center hills before you.

_____________________________

"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 4

Re: a story and a question about buying troops - 3/21/2003 11:54:04 PM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mandreads
[B]I once started a small battle between finland and russia. After the automatically bought HQ unit finland had like 50 points left!? It was enough for a total of one MG half platoon. T'was strange. [/B][/QUOTE]

I always figure the cost of the HQ into the points, so that it is a 'free' unit. If you want a 500 point game, then take 700 points. Then it is a free unit.

Goblin

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 5

- 3/22/2003 7:41:05 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline

Battle plan normally don't survive first contact, build a flexible force, if possible learn your opponent, this can sometimes be done through AARs.

Most of the time Halftracks are always better than trucks (exception being Russian trucks) As Gary stated don't underestimate small AT guns they are hard to spot, cheap, and normally very good spotters. And can chew up the afor mentioned halftrack. Very good ones are the 37mm, and 28mm.

The 50mm German with APCR and the 57mm US with APCR will take out most tanks.

I would never have a force with out a few AT guns, or Light Armor/Heavy Recon and a couple of snipers

My two cents

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 6

- 3/22/2003 8:25:25 AM

Klinkenhoffen

Posts: 248
Joined: 1/30/2003
Status: offline

VikingNo2,
I've read about your like of snipers.

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It's all gone horribly wrong !

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 7

- 3/22/2003 10:13:05 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

These guys are old hands, playing--and I mean no insult--the usual battles. I play a different battle... partly because I do not have enough time. What battle do I play?

Very very small. We're talking 2-4 Companies total--1200-3200 points. I also have been experimenting with early dates, partly for my love of motorcycles, partly to see how things go without the equipment that war experience put in your OOB. (Think Nomonhon with the Japanese and USSR.)

What don't you leave home without? Scouts. Learn how to use them. Cut your weapon ranges for everyone to 2, maybe 3, max, until you contact the enemy (Scouts should have range 0 or even weapons turned off). This is due to a spotting/willies routine in the game. You give someone the willies (making it easier for them to spot you--even in your turn!) if you're looking down the barrel of your gun at them a lot more easily.

Don't leave home without some kind of firepower. Sometimes you can't have artillery, so take a tank. Don't underestimate the power of a single Tankette. If none of these are options, some form of manportable weapon and... well even a mule team is sufficient. If all you have available is an MG, then so be it... just get some unit with a lot of firepower and some way to be able to move it to where you need it the most. (Artillery is nice--you can "move" it by targetting it somewhere else.)

My $0.02, USD.

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 8

- 3/22/2003 10:19:45 AM

o4r

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Klinkenhoffen
[B]VikingNo2,
I've read about your like of snipers. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sniper - in this forum, we mentioned and mentioned again, they are not what they seen to be, they are infact sniper of the future armed with a very short range gauss rifle. THEY CAN ASSUALT AND DESTROYED AN ENEMY TANK!!!!

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 9

Re: a story and a question about buying troops - 3/22/2003 10:31:54 AM

o4r

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mandreads
[B]Hello!

A little preface before the questions...

I've played a few scenarios with a friend, all of them were small random battles, advance missions. Last two were interesting. In the first battle I played brits in north-africa. I bought a company of infantry, trucks to hurry them to the middle vhexes. Then some armored cars and couple of light tanks. I thought that with those trucks I would be the first in the vhexes and then I would smoke the area with infantry and drive the tanks and armored cars to flank the enemy advance.

This ended up being a terrible massacre. Enemy had halftracks on top of the hill before I was there. My trucks with the infantry were pinned in a wide open valley, this happened in the 1st turn. Few immobilized, few destroyed, few in tact.

2nd turn I drove in the armored cars and light tanks to help the poor guys. Then another surprise, two heavy tanks rolled up behind the hill. I had nothing that I could use to destroy them. So in turn 3 things got really ugly. Rest of the battle I was trying to retreat so that at least some men would survive. (Thinking now I should've hit F9 at that point.)

On northern side of the map the enemy had one(!) sniper in the area and he pinned down three of my squads so that they could not advance in 4 turns. After that I saw a halftrack from middle hill coming that way so I backed up.

Thinking afterwards the battle was lost already in the purchase phase. It was a small battle and I thought that the opponent wouldn't invest in expensive tanks. Another mistake I made was that I didn't bring in any mortars. Smoke screen on my advance would've worked wonders.

But then the second battle. Small random advance mission. I am brits again. I learned from the last battle, and I bought two heavy tanks. (Actually I bought US army tanks, I don't remember what was it but it had two big guns). Remaining points I buy few inf platoons and three halftracks.

Basically it was the same thing as in 1st battle but this time it was the other way around. My tanks chewed up opponents halftracks, engineers and the AA gun that he had.

Now the question: What are good guidelines to follow in buying units? What are the units that you never leave home without them? What units pack the "biggest bang for the buck"? What are good ratios betweend armor, infantry and artillery?

Also the one HQ unit, 6 men costing 200 points?! Is it worth keeping in pbem battles (C&C off)? Why don't I just sell it and buy some decent armor with the points? I know about the morale bonus it has, but is there anything else besides that.

Then some general questions. Do you play mainly random battles or scenarios? Which is more fun? What are good point amounts to play with (I read that in about 3000pts you get a decent force)?

I once started a small battle between finland and russia. After the automatically bought HQ unit finland had like 50 points left!? It was enough for a total of one MG half platoon. T'was strange. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rule No. 1 Never! Never! Never! frontal assualt the German when they have they Tiger. They are superb long range killer.

That rule only apply when the visibility is good, in poor visibility Tiger or no Tiger, it is limited to what they can see.

In actual fact most German found that battle with Russian are harder than fighting any Allied unit.

Do not look down on mortar and light artillery. They provide smoke, and fast and good suppression.

Dashing on an open fill with truck is near sucide. Truck are mend to transport troop to the frontline and not in the middle of the battlefield. Truck is good work force behind the front line. Moving your AT, on board Art and Inf to better position.

You must study the equipment of each indiviual country.

For Bristish, 25 pdr is a good on board artillery, you can consider than as a long range 81 mortar.
Depending on the year, British 17 pdr is a killer against most German tank. You did not destroy the enemy tank in order to win, sometime disable them is as good as destroy.

Combat Engineer are also igorned. No matter what country you are playing, they are the only unit that can acutally laid mine in the battle field.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 10

- 3/22/2003 10:51:58 PM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by o4r
[B]Sniper - in this forum, we mentioned and mentioned again, they are not what they seen to be, they are infact sniper of the future armed with a very short range gauss rifle. THEY CAN ASSUALT AND DESTROYED AN ENEMY TANK!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

The way you keep harping on this, how often does it happen to you? I have seen it exactly once, and I have been playing SPWAW from ver 1.0 to 7.1.

Perhaps you might ask yourself why you are moving tanks next to snipers, who have at best a 2% chance to kill a tank. They would have an even lower chance if they moved up to you.
thanks, John.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 11

- 3/23/2003 12:08:43 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by o4r
[B]Sniper - in this forum, we mentioned and mentioned again, they are not what they seen to be, they are infact sniper of the future armed with a very short range gauss rifle. THEY CAN ASSUALT AND DESTROYED AN ENEMY TANK!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

I also wonder.

I've had snipers do many amazing things (like eliminate an 88mm ATG crew at 10 hexes :D).

But I've never successfully assaulted [I]any[/I] kind of vehicle with one (or had it done to me, for that matter). I feel slightly slighted. :(

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 12

I agree with GaryT - 3/25/2003 7:32:44 AM

Buzzard45

Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline

Good description Gary.

It is the combined arms(IRL and in this game) that makes the difference. I started with Panzer Leader by Avalon Hill. In that game you had up to 5 attacks that could go (manually BTW)against any one particular hex. 1. Indirect (from previous orders) 2. Air attack 3. Direct fire . 4. CAT (close assault) 5. Over-run. If a hex needed taking combined arms was the way to do it.

In this game it is not so different.
1. Use arty to suppress and make your enemies OP fire miss.
2. Use Air the same way.
3. Use direct over-watching fire starting with the most distant( it has the least chance of being spotted and/or hit)
4. Use over-run if its possible (Alt-O) or closing in fire if its not.
5. Bring your infantry up close to assault.

Infantry is actually the biggest killer of armor in my games and from what I have read in real life (IRL).

Gary is a master at this. Arty- direct - close/over-run. AND YOU'RE DEAD

That is why you need a balanced force. OH, yeah!! Don't forget the MG jeeps to mop up. The British Long Range Desert Groups (LRDG) do this very well. They double as recon.

Surprisingly , you can get all this in a 2500 point game.

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 13

- 3/26/2003 12:05:45 AM

AbsntMndedProf

Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline

Goblin posted:

"I always figure the cost of the HQ into the points, so that it is a 'free' unit. If you want a 500 point game, then take 700 points. Then it is a free unit."

Hmmm! I just tried doing that setting up a PBEM game. I went to the 'preferences' screen and added 200 points to both sides. Lo and behold, when I went on to purchase my forces, there was no HQ unit! What did I do wrong?

Eric Maietta

(A Goblin is frugal!):D:D:D

_____________________________

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 14

- 3/26/2003 7:37:38 AM

VonRay

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/5/2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by o4r
Sniper - in this forum, we mentioned and mentioned again, they are not what they seen to be, they are infact sniper of the future armed with a very short range gauss rifle. THEY CAN ASSUALT AND DESTROYED AN ENEMY TANK!!!! [/QUOTE]

I can live with the snipers occasionally taking out a tank, but when the crew members do it with thier "misc. handweapons" GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

_____________________________

VonRay

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 15

Sniper? - 3/26/2003 8:31:27 AM

Buzzard45

Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline

e[QUOTE]Originally posted by VonRay
[B]I can live with the snipers occasionally taking out a tank, but when the crew members do it with thier "misc. handweapons" GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

As far back as SP1, there has been in the manual, a warning that, even one man with a pistol can take out a tank. It is rare but it does happen. I have seen it twice. Once to me and once against the AI. It is such a shock when it happens that you remember it. You tend to forget all the other things like an 88 shell bouncing off the front of a half track at a range of 3.:mad: :mad:

I think that snipers are good but the FOO should be as good at hiding and moving. They just aren't. I'll leave a sniper in the same hex with an enemy but leave my FOO behind my lines out of LOS/LOF of anything within 10 hexes. What do those guys do? Stand up and smoke at night? :confused:
Snipers are all "O" units so can call in arty as well, often better than FOO's. It makes me wonder why I buy the darn things anyway. I used to be able to get the quick response adjustments but lately they have been taking 0.2 turns per adjustment. and the sniper have ben only taking 0.1. Is this because the sniper had LOS?

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 16

- 3/27/2003 2:29:23 AM

VonRay

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/5/2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline

[QUOTE]As far back as SP1, there has been in the manual, a warning that, even one man with a pistol can take out a tank. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I remember Sgt. Rock doing it in the comic books all the time.:D

_____________________________

VonRay

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 17

- 3/29/2003 4:54:42 AM

Griefbringer

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/29/2003
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

I think I have had at least twice German sniper jump from a tree, assault a by-passing M-8 Greyhound armoured car with a hand grenade and blow it up! That was truely shocking - both times happened in the hedgerow hells of Normandy.

Never seen it happen to tanks, though. But then the snipers never had a chance to get close enough to those tanks - I have learned to recon the terrain well for enemy infantry before driving my tanks in!

Griefbringer

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 18

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