Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades

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Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/7/2015 12:42:51 PM

IvanShuski

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As you know, Soviet Airborne Brigades can buildup either as Guards Rifle Divisions at 3/42, or Guards Airborne Divisions at 1/43.

Given that:
1) Soviet Divisions can't be broken down into regiments or brigades.
2) Only regiment and brigade sized units can be paradropped.
3) Thus, Guards Airborne divisions can't actually be used for airborne operations.
4) Guards Airborne divisions can't be builtup into Corps, like Rifle Divisions.
5) For Reserve Duty, Brigades have much better activation rate anyway.

What's the point in merging the Airborne Brigades into Guards Airborne Divisions?

It seems they are either more useful remaining as Brigades (can be paradropped, better activation rate as reserves), or building up into Guards Rifle Divisions (available 9 months earlier, at a time when you are critically short of quality formations, and can buildup later into Corps).

Do the Guards Airborne Divisions have any special functionality I'm missing? Extra morale bonus and/or so-much-better TOE that makes them better than a Guards Rifle Corps?

< Message edited by IvanShuski -- 10/7/2015 1:48:24 PM >

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/7/2015 5:16:38 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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You can get 7-8 cv off the Gds Airborne divisions by 1944. Since divisions are more likely to react from reserve than a corps that can be quite a powerful addition to an attack.

But I personally think you gain more by flipping most of the brigades to Gds inf divisions in 1942 and thus into Gds rifle corps as you can.

Then keep back a small cadre as brigades for any late game airborne operations.

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/8/2015 3:22:59 PM

IvanShuski

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So, despite having lower reserve reaction time than brigades, Guards Airbone Divisions are so much stronger than Airbone Brigades that it makes sense to buildup them. Well, that's an angle I was missing.

However, is an Guards Airborne Division stronger than a regular Guards Rifle Division? For reserve duty, their reaction time should be the same, as both are Divisions. And, as regular divisions, they could be build up into Corps or broken down as divisions for convenience. I'm going to compare their TOEs tonight.

Another factor is that I suppose the speciality bonus to morale stacks with the Guards one, getting a +15 to Morale for a Guards Airborne over the +10 that gets a regular Guards.

Finally, a question for the developers: Soviet Guards Airborne divisions not being able to be paradropped, is a working-as-intended feature (you can leave them as brigades if you want to paradrop them, as historically), or a side-effect of soviet divisions not being able to breakdown in the game (too much hassle to enable them to from a programming point of view)?

< Message edited by IvanShuski -- 10/8/2015 4:27:23 PM >

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/8/2015 4:15:03 PM

loki100

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they are certainly stronger, hard to be definite as morale/experience comes into play but I'd expect a Gds Rifle Division to be 4-6 cv in 1944 and a Gds Arbn Division around 8.

the Soviets didn't drop any of the Gds Abn formations in the war, but then after the foul up at Kanev they gave up on airborne all together. So if that had worked they might have done divisional drops but they didn't and instead reverted to using airborne as a tool to interact with the partisan war.

As an eg, in late 44 they flew in commanders and NKVD sabotage specialists to shore up the Slovakian partisan uprising. I think they may have also sent in some paratroops but it would have been at battalion strength.

It took them to the 1950s and the development of their doctrine about conventional warfare during/after a nuclear exchange before they returned to the idea of large scale paratroop operations (but that bit of madness is outside the focus of WiTE)

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/8/2015 4:50:49 PM

IvanShuski

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Yep, from an historical point of view it makes some sense to not let the Guards Airborne Divisions be paradropped. Which is why I wonder if it's a "working as intended, keep them as brigades attached to Corps if you want to paradrop them, like historicaly", or an "implementing breakdown of Soviet Guards Airborne Divisions into brigades is too much hassle from a programming point of view and is far from an historical requeriment".

< Message edited by IvanShuski -- 10/8/2015 11:11:45 PM >

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/8/2015 7:36:00 PM

loki100

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I think it is 'as intended', you have a choice.

probably the best use of your Abn brigades is extra Gds rifle divisions ... Gds rifle corps. The Gds Abn division is a sort of compensation for missing out on this chain (and its easy by mid-44 to get Gds rifle corps >20 cv).

but you have a one off choice, if you want to retain abn capacity, keep them as brigades.

That models what happened but it doesn't account for what *might* have happened if Kanev had worked. Pre-1937, the Soviets had probably done more thinking about airborne operations than anybody else. By mid-43 they would have had the evidence of the value of divisional drops by the Western Allies. So it is feasible that they could have done divisional drops later in the war but by then they could break through with some ease just using ground units and their experience so far did not give them much interest in airborne operations.

Doctrinally they looked at the disaster of the British landings in the Rhine battles in early 1945 as final proof that conventional para operations into a contested battlefield was bound to fail. Historically they returned to airborne first as a tool to exploit the effects of a nuclear strike and then later as part of a massive rethink about the role of special forces and so on.

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/12/2015 10:38:29 AM

Gabriel B.

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The guards airborne division has a nasty upgrade in november 43 .

Rifle squads are traded for untrained smg squads .

my 7 cv divisions turn into 3 cv , which by 1944 is useless .

even to train them back to 50 experience takes most of 1944 .

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/16/2015 8:11:30 AM

IvanShuski

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Checked the TOE of the Guards Airborne Division vs a regular Guards Rifle Division.

As expected, the airborne gets lighter material: No heavy artillery, less guns, less sappers, no SPG very later on... but has more SMGs and machine guns. For a result of a slighter lower base CV for the Airborne. No suprises.

My doubt now is if the airborne gets a +5 speciality bonus over the rifle. Does the speciality bonus stack with Guards status?

So that settles the Airborne vs Rifle issue. They are much alike except the Rifle can buildup into Corps and the Airborne can't.

Regarding the Airborne Division vs Airborne Brigade issue, letting the Guards Airborne Divisions be broken down into brigades in order to parachute them seems redundant. If you want to use them in that role, just leave them as brigades to begin with. I suppose allowing players to build up the Airborne Brigades into Guards Airborne Divisions, then break down at leisure, would just be allowing the soviet player a cheap way to get free Guards status to the airborne brigades.

Overall, I don't think it's worth to buildup the airborne brigades into Guards Airborne Divisions, as they lose airborne capability and are inferior to Guards Rifle Divisions as they can't built up into Corps. If they could break down that would allow an exploit (building them up just to give the brigades free guards status). If they could build up into coprs (I think they historically were used much like normal rifle divisions, so they should) then they could or could not be worth it depending on player taste (better shock and, if the spec bonus stacks, morale, at the cost of artillery firepower).

< Message edited by IvanShuski -- 10/16/2015 9:15:38 AM >

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RE: Question about Buildup of Soviet Airborne Brigades - 10/16/2015 12:59:26 PM

chaos45

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The only good thing about the guard airborne divisions is they are higher morale and thus can hold ground with less manpower thus lower attrition losses when you just holding the line. Thats about the only use I can see for them and how i intend to deploy them, to hold quiet spots with less manpower.

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