Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I think there's a lot of psychological value in the PH strike itself, as well as where it means KB is. If you put KB in the DEI right away, it reveals some things about your strategy. The PH strike is a great generalist approach and keeps your opponent guessing, to an extent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I don´t really agree with that to be honest. I still feel PH is waste of time. The BBs are pretty much useless until 43-44 anyway and most importantly having KB in the DEI would have helped you secure the DEI lightning fast. The added shipping sunk (very little would have escaped) would have easily made up for the VPs from PH. You would also have had a good chance to sink force Z (which contrary to the slow BBs are extremely useful) together with those important cruisers.

That being said if you can hold the timeline without KB I´ll stand corrected!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

That being said if you can hold the timeline without KB I´ll stand corrected!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The bolded section is not mutually exclusive with a PH strike.

I didn't use KB for the DEI in my game, at least as much as I can remember... it's just not necessary.

The BBs may not be useful until late 43 or 1944, but they're much easier to take out on December 7th and are worth hundreds of permanent VPs. Plus, every one that's missing for the Allies makes their job that much harder. Try invading places with only a couple of operable BBs sometime. It's not fun/borderline impossible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

That being said if you can hold the timeline without KB I´ll stand corrected!

A lot can happen yet Jocke. Japan doesn't need KB to sink Force Z either. If it runs, it runs, but if its committed to the DEI there are enough Japanese threats besides KB that can sink her. I think you are kind of missing my point about KB and the Pearl Harbor strike. Using KB in the DEI screams out "Hey, I need this wrapped up as quickly as possible so I can move against Australia or India" in traditional Phase II type operations. If I was an Allied player faced with KB in the DEI, I'd be looking at securing and reinforcing both Australia and India as quickly as possible. I don't want this, I want to encourage an Allied forward defence with a slower paced advance in the DEI coordinated with a Phase I invasion of Australia.

Sometimes I think we get caught up in VP's and applying the most optimum strategies and lose focus on other aspects of playing a war game. I'm looking at things in terms of how can I possibly lead my opponent into doing what I want him to do, all the while setting things up on my end to do something unexpected. I've noticed many of the games follow the same script now, Japan does this, the Allies counter with this. It's all becoming rather vanilla. I'm not saying my planned invasion of Australia is original either, but it's tackling some of the same issues in a different way than the norm. Francois's a smart guy, he'll read standard play a mile away. I honestly think I need to stray from the accepted course if I'm going to catch him off guard. It's like poker, sometimes you just have to play your opponent and not the cards.

Your points are well taken, but I'm following a different path this time around to make the game more interesting for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The bolded section is not mutually exclusive with a PH strike.

I didn't use KB for the DEI in my game, at least as much as I can remember... it's just not necessary.

The BBs may not be useful until late 43 or 1944, but they're much easier to take out on December 7th and are worth hundreds of permanent VPs. Plus, every one that's missing for the Allies makes their job that much harder. Try invading places with only a couple of operable BBs sometime. It's not fun/borderline impossible.

The faster CA/CL/DDs and even some of the faster Aux ships are usually possible to get out when the KB isn´t around. These are also the most useful ships. With the KB in the area not even those could get away.

While I agree the VPs are nice the problem with a PH strike (especially in DBB where followup strikes are very costly due to AA) is that not many BBs are sunk.

I did invade places with only a couple of BBs remember? The BBs can be substituted by using air power which actually works better since you have 2-3 weeks of staying power and is easily restocked on sorties without big facilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The bolded section is not mutually exclusive with a PH strike.

I didn't use KB for the DEI in my game, at least as much as I can remember... it's just not necessary.

The BBs may not be useful until late 43 or 1944, but they're much easier to take out on December 7th and are worth hundreds of permanent VPs. Plus, every one that's missing for the Allies makes their job that much harder. Try invading places with only a couple of operable BBs sometime. It's not fun/borderline impossible.

The faster CA/CL/DDs and even some of the faster Aux ships are usually possible to get out when the KB isn´t around. These are also the most useful ships. With the KB in the area not even those could get away.

While I agree the VPs are nice the problem with a PH strike (especially in DBB where followup strikes are very costly due to AA) is that not many BBs are sunk.

I did invade places with only a couple of BBs remember? The BBs can be substituted by using air power which actually works better since you have 2-3 weeks of staying power and is easily restocked on sorties without big facilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The bolded section is not mutually exclusive with a PH strike.

I didn't use KB for the DEI in my game, at least as much as I can remember... it's just not necessary.

The BBs may not be useful until late 43 or 1944, but they're much easier to take out on December 7th and are worth hundreds of permanent VPs. Plus, every one that's missing for the Allies makes their job that much harder. Try invading places with only a couple of operable BBs sometime. It's not fun/borderline impossible.

The faster CA/CL/DDs and even some of the faster Aux ships are usually possible to get out when the KB isn´t around. These are also the most useful ships. With the KB in the area not even those could get away.

While I agree the VPs are nice the problem with a PH strike (especially in DBB where followup strikes are very costly due to AA) is that not many BBs are sunk.

I did invade places with only a couple of BBs remember? The BBs can be substituted by using air power which actually works better since you have 2-3 weeks of staying power and is easily restocked on sorties without big facilities.

But you can't always bring the air power to stay. Doing so is predicated on KB being a nonfactor, either because of geography, value of the real estate in question, or it being sunk. And I don't think I've seen anything that shows you can completely substitute BB bombardments of islands/coastal bases with air power alone.

Sinking/damaging the BBs at Pearl is about more than just the VPs from sinking them. Even causing heavy damage taxes the Allied shipyards for months or years, in addition to adding logistical strain to your opponent's brainpower. I'd rather hit Pearl and leave my opponent guessing as to where I'm going to send KB next than have KB mucking about in the DEI for a month garnering approximately the same number of VPs from sunk cruisers/destroyers as from 1-2 sunk BBs at Pearl.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Was going to read both sides, but saw your early posts first and decided to stick to your side for this one.

Good luck!

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Forgot to mention, I agree with your assessment. You must get Sydney isolated ASAP, and Melbourne too to the degree that you can. Australia is just amazingly weak in the early going. Air opposition at first will practically be limited to mosquitoes. The insects, not the airplanes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
It really comes down to what you say. I think Australia is very weak and even with some forts, the low experience of the Australian forces could be the deciding factor on whether they can hold or not. Speed is the key and I hope showing up 2-4 months sooner than Francois might expect will make things that much harder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The bolded section is not mutually exclusive with a PH strike.

I didn't use KB for the DEI in my game, at least as much as I can remember... it's just not necessary.

The BBs may not be useful until late 43 or 1944, but they're much easier to take out on December 7th and are worth hundreds of permanent VPs. Plus, every one that's missing for the Allies makes their job that much harder. Try invading places with only a couple of operable BBs sometime. It's not fun/borderline impossible.

The faster CA/CL/DDs and even some of the faster Aux ships are usually possible to get out when the KB isn´t around. These are also the most useful ships. With the KB in the area not even those could get away.

While I agree the VPs are nice the problem with a PH strike (especially in DBB where followup strikes are very costly due to AA) is that not many BBs are sunk.

I did invade places with only a couple of BBs remember? The BBs can be substituted by using air power which actually works better since you have 2-3 weeks of staying power and is easily restocked on sorties without big facilities.

But you can't always bring the air power to stay. Doing so is predicated on KB being a nonfactor, either because of geography, value of the real estate in question, or it being sunk. And I don't think I've seen anything that shows you can completely substitute BB bombardments of islands/coastal bases with air power alone.

Sinking/damaging the BBs at Pearl is about more than just the VPs from sinking them. Even causing heavy damage taxes the Allied shipyards for months or years, in addition to adding logistical strain to your opponent's brainpower. I'd rather hit Pearl and leave my opponent guessing as to where I'm going to send KB next than have KB mucking about in the DEI for a month garnering approximately the same number of VPs from sunk cruisers/destroyers as from 1-2 sunk BBs at Pearl.

I did several atoll landings with very few BBs. Worked well enough and I´m sure it would work without them too. Having BBs instead of CVs doesn´t change anything regarding the presence of KB? With the slow BBs you would still need complete control of the seas and air just as you would using CV/CVEs.

Perhaps it comes down to personal preferences/taste? I don´t think the old BBs are very useful (at all) hence I don´t really understand why Japanese players usually do a PH strike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out.

I'm still awaiting the second turn after all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In my current AAR/PBM I lost 6x BB at PH!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Is it obvious I'd rather be planning and playing AE today more then working?

I'm not sure when Francois is going to be able to send the next turn. I'm heading to Phoenix between Nov. 6-11 and suggested if he needs more time he might as well hang on to the turn until I return, as I won't have access to the game while away, If he sends the next turn before Thursday, I can have it back to him before I leave.