NI #8

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

NI #8

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Command: DLCs >> Command: Northern Inferno >> NI #8

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

NI #8 - 11/1/2015 7:44:18 AM

Ekaton

Posts: 254
Joined: 9/30/2013
From: The War Room
Status: offline

I am currently in the mission 9 of the Northern Inferno and I really like the game so far apart from terrible bugs that I encountered before in mission 3, but mission 8 seems odd in a way that it does not include any fighters based in the UK. When I played before, Russia has sent all of its bombers (8 I think), catching me off-guard after I sent 4 of my fighters to deal with the previous phase of bombers that occured a moment before and which had reached Bingo literally several miles before reaching Soviets. The Bombers were surely in range of the fighters based in Scotland but instead of sending them (which I could well do having a AWACS plane covering almost entire route the Soviet bombers had to fly and knowing about Soviets in advance) I had to watch most of my ships getting sunk by the long range Kitchens - there were just too many of them for my 2 remaining fighters.

My question is - is it really working as intended? Lack of the RAF bases and radars in Scotland really seems punishing player too much and in an implausible way.

< Message edited by Ekaton -- 11/1/2015 8:45:14 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: NI #8 - 11/1/2015 1:51:00 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

Looks like a scenario design decision.

In your opinion is this something you can resolve with tactics or are the fighters necessary?

Thanks!

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to Ekaton)

Post #: 2

RE: NI #8 - 11/1/2015 3:27:25 PM

.Sirius

Posts: 1404
Joined: 1/18/2013
Status: offline

Hi its a game design preference to show if a task group commander can defend his group with limited assets, getting AWACS and CAP would be a nice thing to have but in wartime you work with what you have got

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

I am currently in the mission 9 of the Northern Inferno and I really like the game so far apart from terrible bugs that I encountered before in mission 3, but mission 8 seems odd in a way that it does not include any fighters based in the UK. When I played before, Russia has sent all of its bombers (8 I think), catching me off-guard after I sent 4 of my fighters to deal with the previous phase of bombers that occured a moment before and which had reached Bingo literally several miles before reaching Soviets. The Bombers were surely in range of the fighters based in Scotland but instead of sending them (which I could well do having a AWACS plane covering almost entire route the Soviet bombers had to fly and knowing about Soviets in advance) I had to watch most of my ships getting sunk by the long range Kitchens - there were just too many of them for my 2 remaining fighters.

My question is - is it really working as intended? Lack of the RAF bases and radars in Scotland really seems punishing player too much and in an implausible way.

_____________________________

Paul aka Sirius
Command Developer
Warfaresims
Cold War Data Base 1946-1979 Author

Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

(in reply to Ekaton)

Post #: 3

RE: NI #8 - 11/1/2015 11:43:44 PM

Ekaton

Posts: 254
Joined: 9/30/2013
From: The War Room
Status: offline

You can complete the scenario but it seems that the situation can be unbearable if the enemy sends too many planes at once and especially when it sends a huge wave just after sending a smaller one and planes are returning to base. With two planes available on a very short notice and with Soviet bombers being able to fire from a huge distance and hitting pretty much every single time the situation seems impossible or nearly impossible.

What matters more I think is that the bombers are passing close to Scotland, are certainly detectable using just AWACS (as would by Scottish Radars which are not in scenario) and the whole point is - why would UK not order to intercept enemy bombers they know about in advance when they should have sufficient force in Scotland? The whole thing seems odd but I am not a specialist so I may be wrong - perhaps it is how it should have been.

.Sirius, I understand the concept of this mission and it is a very fine one, but defending it from such an attack would look better if it was to occur far from the Great Britain or France, where they would not be able to send fighters without tankers or if the bombers were to move much further from the coast, which would work well to justify the lack of protection, but what I got is an attack that would clearly overwhelm the TF capabilities passing almost right next to the RAF bases with British not caring at all that their vital ships are in danger. That seems silly.

< Message edited by Ekaton -- 11/2/2015 12:46:03 AM >

(in reply to .Sirius)

Post #: 4

RE: NI #8 - 11/10/2015 9:19:54 PM

CCIP-subsim

Posts: 695
Joined: 11/10/2015
Status: offline

I have to agree with the original comment - I played this scenario a couple of different ways, and I think I figured out what the issue is. I think the trigger for the Backfire strikes is designed with the idea in mind that the player's convoy will (or will not) get detected early in the scenario. It works as it's supposed to if you do. However, if you stay undetected until you're already passing the Irish coast and then get spotted by one of the subs lurking in the shallows, by then ALL the Backfires in the scenario (which seem to have an activation delay) are activated at the same time, which creates a strike package of 24 (!) bombers running right at your force.They will fly right near British shores and, in some cases, fire their missiles over Ireland. Even with 4 of the 5 available AA-capable Skyhawks in the air, the best I was ever able to do was prevent just 4 (of 24) Backfires from launching. The rest literally wipe out the entire convoy, to the last ship, in part because only the SM-equipped ships of the escort are capable of even engaging the missiles in the very last phase of flight when they slow down - which effectively means they can only get at the missiles if fired in self-defense. And even then, not a single SM hit one of the AS-4 missiles.

I edited the scenario to add the F-4 squadrons in Scotland (at Stornoway and Leuchars) that are available in the following mission (#9), and gave them tanker support as well as a ground-based radar; while this was probably overkill, even with 12 F-4s in the air and engaging, I lost 2 of the convoy ships and 1 escort even in the best scenario.

So, I think the solution could be a couple of things:

1) Add some limited resources up in Scotland to be able to intercept the 24-Backfire strike. The 43 Sqn. at Stornoway is a good candidate.

or

2) Limit the maximum number of bombers available for the Backfire strike trigger. 24 bombers flying with impunity near or over Ireland, without any British attempt to intercept them, is overkill. Remove some (at least half) of the Backfires from the scenario.

or

3) Limit the scope of the trigger and prevent the Backfire strike from activating when the convoy is already in British home waters (or at least make it a smaller strike).

One good rationale for this:
When I added the 43 Sqn. and 111 Sqn., based exactly where they are in scenario #9, which takes place almost immediately in the timeline, here's what happened: of these squadrons, a total of 12 planes were available during the Backfire strike, with 6 at their bases and 6 flying relatively distant CAP off Scotland - so not exactly a cheating situation with 24 Backfires coming in. Once these scrambled during the Backfire strike, 8 of them were able to get at the Backfires, and together with the 4 available A-4s, they were able to prevent all except 4 of the Backfires from launching. Those 4 killed a total of 3 ships nonetheless. But in return, ALL 24 Backfires were shot down. I think that's an accurate representation of what would've happened had they got close inshore, and I think that's why the Soviet command would probably not have sent them on a mission like that in the first place, since it would've been suicide. And, mind you, this is with resources that are available in the same exact locations in the NI campaign next mission, nothing more.

(in reply to Ekaton)

Post #: 5

RE: NI #8 - 11/13/2015 3:07:16 PM

Alecc

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/25/2014
Status: offline

quote:

However, if you stay undetected until you're already passing the Irish coast and then get spotted by one of the subs lurking in the shallows, by then ALL the Backfires in the scenario (which seem to have an activation delay) are activated at the same time, which creates a strike package of 24 (!) bombers running right at your force.

Yea .....

I had the same experience as CCIPsubsim. I did a good job dealing with the Bears for the early-mid parts of the scenario and safely escorted my convoy to about 50 miles off the coast of Ireland. I had to deal with a single strike of ~4 bombers part way through. All of a sudden, mega wave. 2 of my 6 A-4s are in refit from their previous CAP. 2 are near Bingo having completed their CAP (race track about 60 miles from carrier towards iceland.) I launch my remaining 2, but there's nothing I can do. None of the A-4s can cover the ~150 miles to the bomber IP. None of the fighters can intercept the missiles at 74k feet. None of the escorts can fire AAMs unless they're targeted.

It's almost as if the game decided that I lose now. Literally, from the moment the attack happened there was nothing I could do to counter. Looking back, there's nothing I could have done different without a priori knowledge of the triggers. I just ... lost. For no particular reason ... just lost.

I get it. ASMs are nasty. The problem is that I feel more punished by the scenario design than informed or intrigued. I honestly don't know how far to roll back my saves and what I would do survive the kill-stack of bombers.

(in reply to CCIP-subsim)

Post #: 6

RE: NI #8 - 11/13/2015 5:54:02 PM

.Sirius

Posts: 1404
Joined: 1/18/2013
Status: offline

Hi guys I've been thinking about this one over the last few days, the scenario stands, the idea is to get across the Atlantic to the South Western Approaches without getting detected if you are detected you get hammered big time by the Backfires, the scenario is winnable just depends how you play it. In reality the RAF would be hard pushed to supply air assets to defend a convoy, as most Sqns would be in West Germany or supporting Norway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecc

quote:

However, if you stay undetected until you're already passing the Irish coast and then get spotted by one of the subs lurking in the shallows, by then ALL the Backfires in the scenario (which seem to have an activation delay) are activated at the same time, which creates a strike package of 24 (!) bombers running right at your force.

Yea .....

I had the same experience as CCIPsubsim. I did a good job dealing with the Bears for the early-mid parts of the scenario and safely escorted my convoy to about 50 miles off the coast of Ireland. I had to deal with a single strike of ~4 bombers part way through. All of a sudden, mega wave. 2 of my 6 A-4s are in refit from their previous CAP. 2 are near Bingo having completed their CAP (race track about 60 miles from carrier towards iceland.) I launch my remaining 2, but there's nothing I can do. None of the A-4s can cover the ~150 miles to the bomber IP. None of the fighters can intercept the missiles at 74k feet. None of the escorts can fire AAMs unless they're targeted.

It's almost as if the game decided that I lose now. Literally, from the moment the attack happened there was nothing I could do to counter. Looking back, there's nothing I could have done different without a priori knowledge of the triggers. I just ... lost. For no particular reason ... just lost.

I get it. ASMs are nasty. The problem is that I feel more punished by the scenario design than informed or intrigued. I honestly don't know how far to roll back my saves and what I would do survive the kill-stack of bombers.

_____________________________

Paul aka Sirius
Command Developer
Warfaresims
Cold War Data Base 1946-1979 Author

Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

(in reply to Alecc)

Post #: 7

RE: NI #8 - 11/13/2015 6:07:56 PM

Alecc

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/25/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi guys I've been thinking about this one over the last few days, the scenario stands, the idea is to get across the Atlantic to the South Western Approaches without getting detected if you are detected you get hammered big time by the Backfires, the scenario is winnable just depends how you play it. In reality the RAF would be hard pushed to supply air assets to defend a convoy, as most Sqns would be in West Germany or supporting Norway.

That's fair enough ... I'm just not sure there is sufficient feedback in the scenario to inform the player of their mistake. Certainly I was detected, but from where and by whom? If I had had a fleeting goblin near my mainforce and then got the hammer dropped on me, that'd make sense ... I'd know what mistake I made. As it is, I have no idea what it is I did wrong. No contacts for the past ~10 hours and then WHAM!

It retrospect, it must be one of the lurker subs that I just never saw, but I can only come to that conclusion by inference.

(in reply to .Sirius)

Post #: 8

RE: NI #8 - 11/13/2015 6:23:37 PM

.Sirius

Posts: 1404
Joined: 1/18/2013
Status: offline

Hi Alecc, in the threat orbat there is mention of Subs etc it just so happens as you said you have a Sub in the grain of the convoy undetected so if you can find it kill it straight away if no it will assist its flying comrades in Iceland to the party :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecc

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi guys I've been thinking about this one over the last few days, the scenario stands, the idea is to get across the Atlantic to the South Western Approaches without getting detected if you are detected you get hammered big time by the Backfires, the scenario is winnable just depends how you play it. In reality the RAF would be hard pushed to supply air assets to defend a convoy, as most Sqns would be in West Germany or supporting Norway.

That's fair enough ... I'm just not sure there is sufficient feedback in the scenario to inform the player of their mistake. Certainly I was detected, but from where and by whom? If I had had a fleeting goblin near my mainforce and then got the hammer dropped on me, that'd make sense ... I'd know what mistake I made. As it is, I have no idea what it is I did wrong. No contacts for the past ~10 hours and then WHAM!

It retrospect, it must be one of the lurker subs that I just never saw, but I can only come to that conclusion by inference.

_____________________________

Paul aka Sirius
Command Developer
Warfaresims
Cold War Data Base 1946-1979 Author

Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

(in reply to Alecc)

Post #: 9

RE: NI #8 - 11/15/2015 4:52:25 AM

Alecc

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/25/2014
Status: offline

FWIW, the issue for me is that there seems to be some scripted Soviet ELINT satellite activity that does not show up in the predicted orbitals dialogue. Caught him overflying my fleet while I had an airborne radar on station and 'POOF', kill stack of 22 bombers.

Is there a reason this overflight isn't showing up in the predicted satellite dialogue?

(in reply to .Sirius)

Post #: 10