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Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 11:40:08 AM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Now this is something that my wargamer intuition does not make sense of in this game. Even against tanks at point blank range a dug in infantry platoon seems to be on the receiving end.

Am I being ignorant here?

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 11/17/2015 12:40:39 PM >

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare
Post #: 1
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 1:18:04 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Weird how different people can have a variety of results, when playing last night I had American infantry (with bradley's) knock out 3 t-80's while in the same hex, what tanks and what infantry did it happen with in your game?

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 2
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 1:46:45 PM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Russian infantry against Leo2s.

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 3
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 1:52:41 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		OK,what scenario? :-)

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 4
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 2:00:26 PM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Any scenario :-) To me it seems this happens consistently troughout the game. Just my feels.

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 5
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 2:07:02 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		I only asked as I cant remember what antitank weapons the Russian infantry squads have, will have a look, maybe somebody more of an expert at the game can have a look and form an opinion :-)

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 11/17/2015 3:19:07 PM >

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 6
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 3:19:16 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		There can be a great deal of difference in how an infantry unit fights based on their weapons loadout, readiness, training, morale, cover, and enemy composition and condition.

If you really believe that the game is off kilter, please send us a save game with some details on what you are seeing and we can look deeper under the hood.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 7
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 6:55:25 PM   
Stimpak


Posts: 632
Joined: 8/23/2015
From: BC, Canada
Status: offline 		The infantry advantage over tanks in urban settings is mostly due to how their mobility would be restricted in cities compared to foot-mobiles in addition to good cover for the infantry. This is missing due to what I assume is abstraction; tanks move just as well in urban hexes because they're all treated as "road" hexes.

Otherwise, it's not so much that infantry are deadly against tanks, as they are cost effective against tanks. You could easily trade a few infantry squads for one tank.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 9:10:20 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Ok just had 10 T-80 BV's enter the same city hex as a dug in American mech platoon, the platoon in question has 68 readiness and 75 morale, so its in above average shape...below is a section of the tac ops center diary...

0602 hrs - 3/C/3rd Bn/ 41st Inf Rgt [2 x M2A1 Bradley [m] and 5 x Mechanized Rifle] in hex 1226 is engaging 10 x T-80BV [m][10 x T-80BV [m]] at point blank range.
0602 hrs - 3/C/3rd Bn/ 41st Inf Rgt claims 2 T-80BV [m] KIA in hex 1226

So it is possible for Infantry to kill tanks in urban terrain, like Capn Darwin says, there are a lot of variables that are taken into account in combat resolution....

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 11/17/2015 10:14:39 PM >

(in reply to Stimpak)
Post #: 9
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/17/2015 10:23:54 PM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Yes I have no data here, this is only my speculation. I do feel however that infantry should at least be alot more harder to spot in a city block, at least from a few hundred meters. And to dislodge a few platoons should require more than tanks overall. The infantry should be pinned or rendered ineffective at best, but not completely dislodged.

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 11/17/2015 11:24:26 PM >

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 10
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/18/2015 12:19:59 AM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I feel this has improved a lot, remember before the infantry wouldn't hold out much at all or inflict much if any damage. My infantry seem to hold out until they drop in readiness and morale and they can and do inflict casualties.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 11
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/18/2015 12:34:56 AM   
Monkie

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 6/12/2005
Status: offline 		In my experience American infantry platoons in urban terrain have put up very good resistance against tanks and even other Mech Infantry. Of course the AI seems to rush right in where a human opponent might use a lot of arty before sending in infantry and tanks. I believe the Russians would try to bypass most built up cities and continue on if at all possible.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 12
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/18/2015 12:39:16 AM   
batteran

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/18/2012
From: New Caledonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stimpak

The infantry advantage over tanks in urban settings is mostly due to how their mobility would be restricted in cities compared to foot-mobiles in addition to good cover for the infantry. This is missing due to what I assume is abstraction; tanks move just as well in urban hexes because they're all treated as "road" hexes.



I noticed that this game isn't really about urban ruins warfare of our days: but open-city and fast movements of doctrinal cold war.

(in reply to Stimpak)
Post #: 13
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/18/2015 10:18:22 AM   
schmolywar

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Consider this; You know from your briefing that the enemy is coming from the east. Would you then set up your m113s facing east or would you hide them from view and only let your AT infantry engange the tanks?

It would make sense that a few bradleys with their atgms would be set to face east, but not in direct view either, more like keyholed within the structures.

The same goes for the various infantry carriers for the soviets as well.

There is just something not right here. I know there are abstractions but sometimes they turn out too simplistic. The 90, 80 percent cover seems to often be negated entirely.

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 11/18/2015 12:24:21 PM >

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

(in reply to batteran)
Post #: 14
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/18/2015 11:28:42 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		I feel the same as budd, the game has been very much improved by patches in terms of infantry v tank urban combat among other aspects...

Before the recent patches tanks could run right over infantry in city hexes almost without a scratch.... now for me anyway if tanks enter a city hex occupied by dug in infantry in decent shape they will have a fight on there hands.

The game feels almost right to me now, as I played on last night there were a couple of similar situations to the one I posted, if fact in the north part of the map a dug in infantry platoon in an urban hex held off and eventually inflicted enough casualties on the attacking Soviet tank unit that it was forced to retreat back out of the hex....




< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 11/18/2015 12:51:32 PM >

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 15
RE: Infantry in cities - 11/19/2015 1:52:34 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: schmolywar

Consider this; You know from your briefing that the enemy is coming from the east. Would you then set up your m113s facing east or would you hide them from view and only let your AT infantry engange the tanks?


That would depend on enemy force composition how I would deploy M113's and I would certainly deploy Bradley's differently. If the Soviet force is in BTR's I will deploy the M113's to fire. Most of the time during the game the taxi vehicles are deployed out of initial contact.

quote:


It would make sense that a few bradleys with their atgms would be set to face east, but not in direct view either, more like keyholed within the structures.


Because the AI is setting them up, and not me, I have to go with what the local commander does. There is a lot of variation as to how the game deploys vehicles with infantry. Consider that you would not be setting any of these in any position. The commander of this unit would.

quote:


The same goes for the various infantry carriers for the soviets as well.

There is just something not right here. I know there are abstractions but sometimes they turn out too simplistic. The 90, 80 percent cover seems to often be negated entirely.


Soviet infantry carriers are a completely different animal. If a vehicle can fire it can also be targeted. The game does not place every single vehicle and man in the game and track it. I know that several gamers would like that but at this level of action that's not really feasible. Again, you need to consider the position in the Chain of Command you hold in the game. You aren't the platoon commander or a squad leader. Those guys are doing their jobs the best they can.

As always, we are looking to make the AI's actions more realistic and more challenging. I won't say that this won't get adjusted in the future. I will say this is the level of control you will continue to have over your units.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to schmolywar)
Post #: 16
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