Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

So let me get this straight, DC3 offers the option to include a story line in the game on a sensitive subject that no other game even touches on, ie the other games are all off by design, and instead of recognition they are blasted for it not being the default option? And I thought wargamers were a more intelligent bunch

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.

Unlike lots of others in this thread, Rick seems at least to be reading my posts.

First, I have a basic question which was not answered by my review of the relevant portions of the manual: What happens if you choose the Geneva Convention option? Are all aspects of the game relating to decisions re atrocities TURNED OFF, or are the decisions sanitized so that the German player makes decisions on these topics, but only within the scope of the Geneva Convention?

In my view, the former is a perfectly acceptable option (although see below), and this game would be no better or worse than any other game on this topic. The latter, however, is an unacceptable whitewash, in that these topics are still included, but the Germans are falsely portrayed as lily white, unlike the dastardly Soviets.

So which is it, how does the game work?

Again, if all these features are simply completely turned off, that's perfectly OK, although the name of the option certainly creates a unnecessarily misleading impression. If it doesn't matter for game purposes if the Germans are following the Geneva Convention, why say that they are? Who are you trying to appease? Names/labels do matter.

I'm sorry if other players consider this issue irrelevant--I cannot.

I'm also troubled by the fact that to the extent that Matrix cares about these issues, they only seem to care about how the Germans look...in another Matrix game, Matrix had no problem depicting Soviet war crimes, without any option to turn them off, but I guess that's perfectly OK? I am speaking of the scenario in a game I won't mention in which the German side's mission was to save a little Russian girl from Soviet troops which were trying to kill her (for no apparent reason). I thought it was very strange and didn't pick up the game again (which I didn't care much for anyway).

And I am not looking for an atrocity simulator, as someone (who apparently hadn't read my posts) claimed, or for these issues to be addressed at all, but to the extent that these issues are addressed, they should be addressed accurately.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
With regards to your hints towards "German" propaganda (but I think you mean NAZI? Since Germans are a people you know, and Germany is a country today?) - I find that distasteful

quote:

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/30/2015 5:26:14 AM >

quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

Hi,

This is a game, not a political statement. The actual conflict was more brutal and uglier than anything you'd read on the news today.

The Dark Side is there to highlight the impact moral & ethical considerations had on Operational Command, no other reason.

As it's a touchy subject with personal implications for some people, it's OFF by default.

It's optional not because of political correctness but rather for consideration of other people's views.

Cheers,
Cameron

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.

Unlike lots of others in this thread, Rick seems at least to be reading my posts.

First, I have a basic question which was not answered by my review of the relevant portions of the manual: What happens if you choose the Geneva Convention option? Are all aspects of the game relating to decisions re atrocities TURNED OFF, or are the decisions sanitized so that the German player makes decisions on these topics, but only within the scope of the Geneva Convention?

In my view, the former is a perfectly acceptable option (although see below), and this game would be no better or worse than any other game on this topic. The latter, however, is an unacceptable whitewash, in that these topics are still included, but the Germans are falsely portrayed as lily white, unlike the dastardly Soviets.

So which is it, how does the game work?

Again, if all these features are simply completely turned off, that's perfectly OK, although the name of the option certainly creates a unnecessarily misleading impression. If it doesn't matter for game purposes if the Germans are following the Geneva Convention, why say that they are? Who are you trying to appease? Names/labels do matter.

I'm sorry if other players consider this issue irrelevant--I cannot.

I'm also troubled by the fact that to the extent that Matrix cares about these issues, they only seem to care about how the Germans look...in another Matrix game, Matrix had no problem depicting Soviet war crimes, without any option to turn them off, but I guess that's perfectly OK? I am speaking of the scenario in a game I won't mention in which the German side's mission was to save a little Russian girl from Soviet troops which were trying to kill her (for no apparent reason). I thought it was very strange and didn't pick up the game again (which I didn't care much for anyway).

And I am not looking for an atrocity simulator, as someone (who apparently hadn't read my posts) claimed, or for these issues to be addressed at all, but to the extent that these issues are addressed, they should be addressed accurately.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGoat
Sorry 76mm but this is irrelevant IMO. The option is there, doesn't really matter if its the default and remember that both the Nazi and Soviet sides committed atrocities in the East, not just one side or the other, no matter what propagandists might say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGoat
The simple fact that its there at all is a major departure from most wargames. Would anyone have noticed if the designers hadn't included it as an option at all ? Probably not I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

The default setting is not that the Germans are the good guys. Either which way the setting is toggled then this is a simulation of the surprise attack on a de facto erstwhile ally that leads to the premature death of 30+ million souls, effectively the whole population of Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden terminated or 10% of the USA. At the core this is not a good event, in the middle of a wider bad event and if you get emotional about the morals of that might I suggest another game.

As others have mentioned this game gives an option to expand the decisions that the German commander is faced with, something that other games utterly steer away from. Even hint at discussing it on the Hearts of Iron forum and your post will be deleted. This game is bold to include it as part of the wide range of choices to be made. In fact (from those I have seen/recall) really the German commander doesnt order any crimes, its more whether they are reported or swept under the carpet. But its not for everybody, and for those people of a delicate nature (though how/why/if many of these delicate souls come to be playing a wargame simulating the events above is mysterious) is better that they by default aren't faced with these by default, but rather have to opt-in to the experience. Thats a rational game decisions and I'd be very surprised if it changed.

However what maybe could be changed is the Geneva convention description. I don't think it should be glossed over whether or not the Germans observed the convention, they clearly didn't. Neither side did, and both regimes were brutal. It should maybe be clearer that the toggle is to include war crimes events or not. Its not whether to play in a parallel universe where they didn't happen. I don't believe that was really the spirit or intention of the game design and I think it could be worded better. But overall either which way, it doesn't mean the Germans are the good guys. Many of them had skulls on their uniforms. Never the sign of a benevolent liberating peacekeeping force:

Great clip from Michell & Webb - Are we the baddies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

Hi, just a short question:
I started my first game with Geneva ON but after reading here and there I now think it was a mistake and I should have opted for OFF.
I cannot find the information if it's possible to change this setting once the game has started (and how) or if I will have to restart a new game ?
Thanks