RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/15/2015 8:14:10 AM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Think of the 80/20 rule.

20% of you airforce is what will do the fighting. And this is Frank and George for 43 and 44. The Jack is a defensive frontline fighter only. You can't sweep with them.

A small portion of that 20% (depending upon how your game plays out) will be Night fighters.

If you want to get to the end game; focus on fighters, and to a lesser extent NF and Judy and Jill. Simplest is to get Frank and George very early, and to produce them in great numbers. Most of the other planes are like icing on the cake...with the exception of Sam for your carriers.

Ten size 30 factories going after the Frank A won't serve you ill. Or 8 size thirty and 2 size 60. The size 60 go right into production...

Lowpe. Just to be clear, are you suggesting I have ten X thirty Frank A R&D factories?

I have no problem with this and I clearly see the reason why. Just want to double check.

quote:

PS: My advice is geared to the first time player.

And you do a damn good job of it.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 361

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/15/2015 8:26:54 AM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Now, then think of your fighters holistically defending a base in early 44.

The Frank A are you anti Jugs planes and are flying at say 10K. Your largest present fighter.

A squadron of Oscars, very agile, are flying around 5K. They are the bait for the sweepers.

Your Tonies are your bomber killers and they fly at expected altitudes for the enemy bombers approximately.

You might have a squadron on Tojo IIc a little higher than the Franks to give them a little more protection from diving Jugs, and also the Tojo might be able to counter dive.

So, each plane has a definite purpose...but you need 4 squadrons of Franks to each squadron of Oscars or Tonies. Plan on losing at least 3 fighters for each Jugs. Then there are Corsairs, Lightnings, Spitfires, oh my.

Plus you need numbers, good pilots, radar warning, flak to disrupt the bombers aim, supplies, etc, etc.

Without good pilots your planes won't perform well for example and all that supply used in creating them gone for no gain or less than optimal gain.

I am going to call this the Lowpe +1 (Pax) Supper Stack or just the �Stack� for short. I suspect that we will be seeing a lot of this term.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 362

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/15/2015 12:50:09 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Think of the 80/20 rule.

20% of you airforce is what will do the fighting. And this is Frank and George for 43 and 44. The Jack is a defensive frontline fighter only. You can't sweep with them.

A small portion of that 20% (depending upon how your game plays out) will be Night fighters.

If you want to get to the end game; focus on fighters, and to a lesser extent NF and Judy and Jill. Simplest is to get Frank and George very early, and to produce them in great numbers. Most of the other planes are like icing on the cake...with the exception of Sam for your carriers.

Ten size 30 factories going after the Frank A won't serve you ill. Or 8 size thirty and 2 size 60. The size 60 go right into production...

Lowpe. Just to be clear, are you suggesting I have ten X thirty Frank A R&D factories?

I have no problem with this and I clearly see the reason why. Just want to double check.

quote:

PS: My advice is geared to the first time player.

And you do a damn good job of it.

10 size30 Franks only 300 Frank/month. By end game you will need to produce ~1200 fighters/month just to match historical production. Frank will likely be a large piece of that pie ... so 10x30 is a good initial plan. Supply permitting and good play on your side, I would not be surprised that by '46 these would be 10x60 or so.

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(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 363

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/15/2015 1:07:55 PM

PaxMondo

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As Lowpe states you need numbers to defeat Jug sweeps. And also as he says if you can't don't try. There is another reason, more insidious than he states as to why not: every plane you lose makes that allied pilots better. You goal in every encounter is no matter if your losses are 3:1 or 4:1 or worse, not a single allied planes survives. That way, he is losing pilot exp not gaining it at your expense AND your surviving pilots have gained exp so for the next fight you are stronger, he is weaker.

The air war is a long marathon, this whole process starts on day one. You do not want to throw away pilots, but more importantly, do not train his. Players that stay on the upside of this air war curve are almost always successful. The allies start on the downside, but defense has a key advantage in this equation: you lose fewer pilots fighting over your base. So early on, the IJ needs to be careful with their pilots on the offensive: attain your goals, but not at the expense of too many pilots. This is why better players rarely, if ever, do a day 2 PH attack: too many pilots lost and the gain isn't worth it. I only do it IF I think I can get 4 more BB's sunk minimum because I know I will lose 40 pilots. I'm ok with 10 pilots/BB. Much above that, I can't afford that many losses as it will make my other early goal unattainable.

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Pax

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Post #: 364

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/15/2015 7:15:10 PM

Lowpe

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You may want to start with 8 size 30 and 2 size 60 for the Frank A. The size 60 go into immediate production, while the 8 size 30 move onto r&d the Frank R. Of course you will most likely need more than 120 Frank A a month.

Frank A also can make for an excellent kamikaze, although as a fighter it will be okay thru 44, and as an escort thru 45.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 365

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 1:47:22 AM

PaxMondo

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Not sure if this is the right place, but Lowpe brought it up, so excuse me for the digression.

I would never advise building a size 60 RnD factory. Why? RnD factories do not produce their RnD point until fully repaired. The maximum they can produce is 1%/day and they achieve this at size 30. Larger will not produce more than 1%/day, or after 100 days, the start date of the plane will advance 1 month.

In the very best situation, if the size 60 repaired a factory every day, you would still be 30% down compared to the size 30 factory. Of course, RnD factories do NOT repair 1 pt/day ... it has a large random component to a somewhat known formula. This creates a single sided distribution that is overlooked by some attempts to mathematically support the use of these large RnD factories ... anyway the RnD loss is much more than simply 30%. So you end up completing the research later. Once the research is complete, production factories repair at 1 pt/day AND still produce as they grow unlike RnD factories.

Its like repairing Light Industry factories, there is no mathematical support to do so and plenty of evidence to the contrary yet a fair number of players do it. All I can do is to agree to disagree. Same with the size 60 RnD factories in my opinion.

Lowpe is a good player and he uses them. We have agreed to disagree. I've shared my side and that's all I will say on the topic. He'll share his side and you're the player. It's not a game breaker or a game winner either way. I just always maximize my economy efficiency. 1% here, 1% there ... they add up.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/16/2015 2:51:57 AM >

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Post #: 366

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 3:33:24 AM

awaw

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I believe the larger r&d factories repair faster. Personally I have not seen enough data that can convince me empirically that a size 60r&d is worst than a size 30. But they certainly do not grant more r&d points. If one look at opportunity cost, and the fact that imperial side has a finite amount of supplies, supplies expended to grow a factory from 30 to 60 can be put to better use.

Another "till cows come home" topic. :d

2 cents from Singapore
awaw

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Post #: 367

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 11:17:46 AM

Lowpe

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Properly used, size 60 factories do have a place.

Size 30 and size 60 r&d facilities repair at the same relative pace.

Size 60 give no additional benefits to r&d over a size 30.

Therefore, on relatively early planes it can make sense to make a size 60 factory as long as it goes into production upon completion of the plane. This gives you a 30 day boost to plane production over the normal size 30 facility.

For example: A size 60 Nick D factory will net you 60 planes that first month of production.

Is it a game breaker of a strategy? No, But it can be useful if used sparingly and correctly.

(in reply to awaw)

Post #: 368

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 11:51:21 AM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Not sure if this is the right place, but Lowpe brought it up, so excuse me for the digression.

I'm like Mike, any and all discussions concerning the game are welcome here. We all learn.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 369

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 11:52:56 AM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw

2 cents from Singapore
awaw

Thanks and welcome awaw.

You better make it 4 cents worth. Two cents wont buy you anything in Singapore.

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El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to awaw)

Post #: 370

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 11:56:16 AM

el lobo

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Right now I have eight X (will be) thirty (8X30), and one X sixty (1X60) for the Frank, for two reasons. Firstly, one of the Frank factories starts the game at 0(55) so, to me, it only makes sense to build it to sixty.

The other is that I am out of factories the way I have it set-up although I am willing to sacrifice some of the other factories if we think it is worth it. In July I will have one more free and then some more in a couple of months.

Please do not pay too much attention to the factory sizes as I have yet to build them out.

Thanks All. Great discussions.

Attachment (1)

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El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 371

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 4:17:29 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Please do not pay too much attention to the factory sizes as I have yet to build them out.

This is actually the main point I can make about your R&D and your major problem, the choice of the models is OK to me.
Remember that time of repair of the whole factory does not depend on the size, size 1 and size 30 factories will get fully functional at the same date on average. But you get 30 points repaired in the latter case, and only 1 point repaired in the former. If you chose to get your factories to 30 later, you just increase their average date of finishing repairs.
Meaning all your key factories (fighters!) should be size 30 ASAP, unless you are critically low on supplies

Example: I have a Stock1 game with 11 factories researching Frank-A with arrival date in 4/44 set at 30 size in December 8-10. In June 1, 1942 (same timeperiod as you) they all repaired 7-9 points, with one leader reparing 14/30. Compare it with your 1/44 arrival date. If you make your Frank factories 30 now, they will still be like new and will just start on the way up.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 12/16/2015 5:30:07 PM >

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Post #: 372

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/16/2015 9:46:47 PM

el lobo

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Hi GA,

What I am critically low on is time.

I like to keep track of this stuff in spreadsheets so it takes me awhile to physically change all of this in addition to the time it takes me to learn and understand it.

I completely agree with you and as soon as I (we) are sure that this is the line-up we want, I will increase all of them to thirty.

It has taken a bit longer than it should have but this has been a fantastic learning experience. What I have lost in time hopefully will be made-up by having the proper a/c at the end-game.

As an aside, you will be happy to know that an invasion on Ceylon is about four days out.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 373

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/17/2015 1:50:06 AM

PaxMondo

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OK, you've chosen your ac model and identified your factories.

Now, you need to match engine production.

Then, be careful while building all of this. It will eat a lot of supply, don't let your economy crash. A simple way to do this, assuming the HQ General Defense Army is in Tokyo is to simply watch the Tokyo supply. I don't like for it to drop below 500K. Any time it does, I am watching it like a hawk and I am doing something REALLY important. Otherwise, simply turn off factory repair, allow supply to build back up and then selectively turn on factory repair. Remember, you only generate a bit over 20K supply/day in the HI. If you try to repair more factories than that, supply will drop. This big a project can easily consume more than 20K/day. Be careful.

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Post #: 374

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/18/2015 12:30:28 PM

el lobo

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Thanks Pax,

I moved two locations from the Aichi Ha-60 to the Ha-45 and moved two more, one each to the -32 and -33.

I will add Tokyo to my industry list which I will post tomorrow.

Attachment (1)

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El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 375

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/18/2015 12:56:52 PM

PaxMondo

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Also be sure that every base that has a factory that you want to expand has the requested supply set to at least 4000. That will ensure greater than 10K supply at the base which will allow factories to repair.

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Pax

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Post #: 376

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/18/2015 4:02:51 PM

SqzMyLemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A simple way to do this, assuming the HQ General Defense Army is in Tokyo is to simply watch the Tokyo supply. I don't like for it to drop below 500K.

I thought I'd pass this along as it was a very expensive lesson for me to learn. In my last game I moved the General Defense Army HQ from Tokyo to another base, a much smaller base. I was bleeding supply every day after that, but couldn't figure out why. I lost hundreds of thousands of supply until people mentioned to check spoilage. I looked in tracker and sure enough, where I had moved the HQ was the cause and the spoilage was astronomical.

Just something to think on if you decide to tinker with HQ locations in the Home Islands.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 12/18/2015 5:04:58 PM >

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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/18/2015 4:12:59 PM

Lowpe

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+1.

You should check spoilage in tracker every now and then. It can really hurt!

Click on resources and then sort for spoilage. Early on Miri, Balikpapen and Palembang can all spoil, as can several bases on the HI that have factories you want to repair.

Build the AF up to prevent that. Or port.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 378

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/19/2015 1:05:44 PM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Also be sure that every base that has a factory that you want to expand has the requested supply set to at least 4000. That will ensure greater than 10K supply at the base which will allow factories to repair.

Done. Thanks.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 379

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/19/2015 1:08:06 PM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I thought I'd pass this along as it was a very expensive lesson for me to learn. In my last game I moved the General Defense Army HQ from Tokyo to another base, a much smaller base. I was bleeding supply every day after that, but couldn't figure out why. I lost hundreds of thousands of supply until people mentioned to check spoilage. I looked in tracker and sure enough, where I had moved the HQ was the cause and the spoilage was astronomical.

Just something to think on if you decide to tinker with HQ locations in the Home Islands.

That was an expensive lesson. I have moved a couple of HQs around to get better torpedo coverage but nothing in or out of Tokyo. I will double check but so far Tracker has not shown any spoilage.

Thanks for the heads-up.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 380

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/19/2015 1:09:59 PM

el lobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

+1.

You should check spoilage in tracker every now and then. It can really hurt!

Click on resources and then sort for spoilage. Early on Miri, Balikpapen and Palembang can all spoil, as can several bases on the HI that have factories you want to repair.

Build the AF up to prevent that. Or port.

Thanks Lowpe. That is one thing I have done. I get a little once in awhile on some of the jimas when I bring in too many units at one time but easily controlled. All of my main production bases are built-up fairly well.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 381

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/19/2015 1:13:06 PM

el lobo

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Stats for 1 Jun 42

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El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 382

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/19/2015 4:55:38 PM

PaxMondo

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So, with 2M supply in Tokyo, the most factories you want to plan to repair now it ~1500. Sounds like a lot, and it is, but you start with about 90 AC factories. To build them all to size 30 with new AC, which is pretty much what you need = 90 x 30 = 2700 factories. Don't foget the engines also need to expand at a rate of about 1.4 or so. This means you can only expand about:

AC = 600
Eng = 840
Tot = 1440 or 1.44M supply.

So, pick and choose what factories to repair. You build about 20K/day supply in the HI, so of course this number move up. Just realize that if you put all the engine and AC factories to repair you could burn through about 110 K supply per day - 20K or 90K net per day. 900K in 10 days potentially. Won't be that fast as some of your AC factories are RnD and won't repair that fast, still, it can happen quickly. Just be careful and monitor Tokyo every day.

And this is just AC + eng. Doesn't include you wanting to maybe expand HI factories or NSY or VEH or ....

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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/20/2015 12:26:52 PM

el lobo

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I will keep an eye on Tokyo's supply, but you know Pax, sometimes you make my head hurt.

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Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 384

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/20/2015 1:30:32 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

I will keep an eye on Tokyo's supply, but you know Pax, sometimes you make my head hurt.

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Post #: 385

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 12/22/2015 12:25:45 AM

el lobo

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Jun 2, 1942

We landed at Trincomalee today. A Regiment was pretty beat-up but a Div will land tomorrow.

After we take the base, we will establish LBA and attempt to disrupt Allied movement in the Bay of Bengal and do port attacks at Colombo.

I will march the Div to Colombo. Another Reg and Div will land at Madras in a few days.

I notice a new airfield at Chittagong so we may have some air action up there. My new Nick unit is two days out of Magwe. The new Tojo unit is repairing and as soon as it is done it will also go to Magwe and the Tojo unit that is at Magwe (the original sampler unit, nine a/c) will go to Singers to re-size (12) and then go back to Pbang.

Attachment (1)

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El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
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Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 386

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 1/7/2016 8:51:52 AM

el lobo

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Production Jun 13, 1942

Between a little mis-communication, the holiday season, and my internet crashing, we have gotten behind on our turns but are now continuing along.

Not much has happened in the war so that can wait. I used the down-time to read some AARs and work on my a/c production, mainly my fighter-bombers.

Some aside news, my HI went over 1M today, the Ki-44-IIc Tojo has advanced to 1/44,and the A6M5 Zero has advanced to 8/42. I suspect that I will get that plane next month.

I got my first A6M3 Zero group the first of the month. It came with two planes. I will not be producing this model so it will be a training group until it gets upgraded.

Re the Ki-45 KAIb Nick. I increased production to sixty planes per month along with another ten -35 engine increase. Basically all of my Army bomber groups are able to up-grade to this model. The single-engine groups cost PPs but that is not a problem. The twin-engine planes have to down-grade to single-engine groups and then can up-grade to the Nick. Probably will not do this but I think I would sacrifice Lilys for Nicks if need be.

At present, I have eighteen Ida, Sonia, and Mary groups that I will convent as needed and then five more Ann groups if I need more. I would like to keep the Anns for smaller bases and islands if I can.

I have identified the places that I feel I need Nicks �immediately�. North Burma (3 bases), Rangoon, Paoshan, and Ceylon. I have a group at Magwe so I need five more ASAP. Eventually I want two groups at each base, a larger group for day-time cap and a smaller group for night-cap.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 387

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 1/7/2016 9:04:17 AM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
At present, I have eighteen Ida, Sonia, and Mary groups that I will convent as needed and then five more Ann groups if I need more. I would like to keep the Anns for smaller bases and islands if I can.

Anns are also good ASW platforms for the first year of war while you have all your 2E bombers engaged on land

(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 388

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 1/7/2016 4:13:45 PM

SqzMyLemon

Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

I will keep an eye on Tokyo's supply, but you know Pax, sometimes you make my head hurt.

I like to think sometimes I give Pax a headache with my method of expanding Japan's economy early. I won't even mention how much supply I have at Tokyo, Pax would freak.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to el lobo)

Post #: 389

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 1/8/2016 11:28:09 AM

el lobo

Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline

GA, that's what their doing. Maybe some day they will do something.

Someone has to keep us straight SML. He just makes it looks so easy.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 390