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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 9:32:42 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


Haven't you had a few other problems in this game, like the single PT TFs and something else IIRC?


He likes to be creative in his use of the game engine. I am sure he doesn't know this tactic is an exploit of the game engine, simply that it is a creative use of it instead.

My sons would describe his playstyle as powergaming,or a min/maxer.

He has been a wonderful opponent over the years. I wish I could have given him a stronger game.



You're very generous and a good opponent yourself to work it out harmoniously. It's just too bad that you would have to keep having those kinds of conversations throughout a game when you
've already made clear the type of gaming that is acceptable to you. Each opponent has to bend to the other to achieve a long-lasting enjoyable game.

So close to the finish, why do something so obviously questionable?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 2:41:41 PM   
Lowpe


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July 19th, 1944

Allies running roughshod all over the Empire. Well,the PC Nire has had enough. She sorties from a secret base north of Luzon and catches a CV force with 3%moonlight.

She strikes, and gets away with only two glancing AA hits.




I don't like to use single ship TF, but all her sister ships are visiting Davy Jones Locker.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/19/2016 4:15:50 PM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 2:47:39 PM   
Lowpe


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We sortie all the remaining frontline fighters over Nagoya, but the bombers don't come. They savage Japanese industry instead.

Several normal naval bombardments of Nagoya,and an artillery exchange round out the day for the defenders.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:07:57 PM   
Lowpe


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Being the crafty Japanese player that I am (not!)I rigged a CAP trap using three damaged APDs. They managed to avoid two surface fights during the night against 5 Fletchers that were bombarding the port to the south, and in the afternoon they got hit.

I had to use A6M5c, Oscar IVs, a few Tonies and George...but we managed to down some F6Fs, two Corsairs and a few bombers for nice 1-1 trade or thereabouts.

That is not too shabby given the plane models involved.

Didn't even lose any of the APDs, but they are toast today most likely. Maybe not.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:09:58 PM   
Lowpe


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If only!




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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:20:25 PM   
Lowpe


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I got a response from Tiemanj, and now that he is aware of the faux amphibious bombardment exploit has agreed not to use it of course. I will now call it an Exploit, whereas prior to Alfred's explanation I was unsure.

The Allies went to the amphibious bombardments because he saw how his normal bombardments weren't targeting the regiments/brigades and 1/3rd of a division, whereas the faux amphibious bombardments did. He was unaware of the supply and targeting issues like most of us.

I shared some of the recent discoveries, at least to me, with him. Targeting, amphibious invasions routine, etc., etc.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/19/2016 4:33:05 PM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:23:52 PM   
Lowpe


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Over at Haiphong, the Allies shock attack and we retreat to Hanoi. Some troops in very good order as I put them in Reserve (no pursuit) mode, while others took it on the chin. I lost 200 combat squads and 300 support squads, but I managed to evacuate three full divisions, a few brigades, and three tank regiments plus about dozen support units out of the Vinh pocket.

The rail line is still open, as an AF COY squad is still there...so in theory I could move more there, but I don't think I will.

I will get some pictures up shortly.

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:25:46 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


You're very generous and a good opponent yourself to work it out harmoniously. It's just too bad that you would have to keep having those kinds of conversations throughout a game when you
've already made clear the type of gaming that is acceptable to you. Each opponent has to bend to the other to achieve a long-lasting enjoyable game.

So close to the finish, why do something so obviously questionable?


What do you mean close to the finish? I getting ready to sucker punch him!

Only a few issues over the years -- that ain't bad at all!

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Post #: 6848
RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:27:54 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Not really certain what Lokasenna's point is. But if he meant to say that 157, then 117 (sic) guns firing is not that heavy an expenditure, then he has misunderstood the supply consumption routines. He wouldn't be alone in that.

1. All LCUs consume 100% supply. The base line is 1 supply point per device. So if a unit has 1500 devices (the ball park figure for a full division), its monthly base line supply consumption is 1500 for doing absolutely nothing - no base building, no combat whatsoever etc.

2. Here comes the bit which seems to be misunderstood by players, in part because of the terminology used by the devs. Keeping faith with the devs I've used their terminology when explaining this bit but maybe I should use different terminology.

Every LCU has a maximum of 10 "shots" which are used up in any form of combat. Each "shot" used increases the supply consumption by 10%. The confusion is that these "shots" do not equal guns firing per se. A better way of looking at "shots" is to consider them to be "combat participation levels". I'll demonstrate what this entails as follows.

(a) LCU (of 1500 devices) is attacked by a single enemy aircraft on ground attack in the morning. The LCU has no flak and therefore does not return fire, it merely absorbs the attack which causes zero casualties to the LCU. "Shot" count (or "combat participation level) = 1. Means supply required for next turn jumps to 1650 (or 110%).

(b) same as 1 above but LCU has 3 flak guns which return fire. "Shot" count (or "combat participation level") = 2. Supply required for next turn jumps to 1800 (or 120%).

(c) same as (a) above with difference that 3 separate (with varying number of enemy aircraft) ground attacks are made in the morning. Still no flak so no return fire. "Shot" count (or CPL) = 3. Supply required for next turn jumps to 1950 (or 130%).

(d) same as (c) but each ground attack also receives fire from 3 flak guns. "Shot" count (or CPL) = 6. Supply required for next turn jumps to 2400 (or 160%).

(e) same as (d) but in addition there are two afternoon ground attacks from enemy planes which get fired on by the same 3 flak guns. "Shot" count (or CPL) = 10. Supply required for next turn jumps to 3000 (or 200%).

3. From point 2(e) above it can be seen that the act of 15 flak gun replies in aggregate results in 5 "shots" (or CPL) and an increased supply requirement 750 (assuming no losses were incurred by the LCU). Rather disproportionate some might think but remember this is an abstraction.

4. Assume the LCU has no "offensive" firepower whatsoever. During the course of a turn (both night and day phases) it is the subject of 10 separate naval bombardments, air attacks, ground assaults, to which it makes no response ever, just absorbing the attacks. Its "shot count is 10 and next turn its required supply is 200%.

5. Assume that no attacks are made against the LCU next turn. At the end of the day 2 turn, its "shot" count does not necessarily decrease. Removal of "shots" is dependent on several factors, suffice to say that it is not uncommon for there to be a lag in getting back to zero "shots" or 100% supply consumption. Having the LCU in "rest" mode (="reserve" when enemy LCU are in the same hex) helps to get the "shot" count down.

6. And now for something almost completely different. Read my posts in this thread about artillery participation in land combat.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3701981&mpage=1&key=counter%2Cbattery�

It is possible that artillery will participate in land combat and not fire at ships, and vice versa.

7. In a separate post, Lowpe raised some questions re "reserve" mode. A couple of quick answers.

(a) I'm not certain the manual is correct in saying that units are placed in "move" mode if they get activated on the defence in land combat. You will just have to wait to see the revised manual for the correct position.

(b) the reserve mode benefits only apply to land combat. They do not apply to naval or air combat. But I suggested that Lowpe put up to 1/4 into reserve as they would still benefit from the as regular as clockwork daily land combat which follows the faux invasion bombardments. Means they don't get further damaged/destroyed by the land combat, helps in getting the "shot" count down (and thus their supply consumption)

(c) defenders released from reserve mode receive all the benefits enjoyed by the other LCUs in combat mode receive from; terrain, base fortification level leadership, HQ bonus etc. The only malus would be if they are in move mode and as I said in (a) I'm not certain that actually occurs

(d) activation check is unit leadership. IIRC, unit experience may also be a smallish component.

Alfred



Thanks so much Alfred.

There is a lot of gold in that post!!!!

I am still looking for many more answers on Reserve mode, and will heavily experiment with from now on.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/19/2016 4:34:50 PM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 3:30:25 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Try laying multiple minefields in the target hex/approach hex - amphib TFs has to go really close to shore, so a higher chance to get a mine hit or two. A few of those and battlewagon takes forever to repair...?


I missed your post, when originally made. So sorry! Oops.

I have been dropping type 88, Iboat mines that are absolute monsters, and prior to that I had some PB dropped mines. I have managed to hit several Destroyers, but nothing larger than that.

I have managed to score some collisions, and will continue to try for that with MTBs, etc.

My mine inventory is rock bottom, except for aerial mines.

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 4:59:39 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


You're very generous and a good opponent yourself to work it out harmoniously. It's just too bad that you would have to keep having those kinds of conversations throughout a game when you
've already made clear the type of gaming that is acceptable to you. Each opponent has to bend to the other to achieve a long-lasting enjoyable game.

So close to the finish, why do something so obviously questionable?


What do you mean close to the finish? I getting ready to sucker punch him!

Only a few issues over the years -- that ain't bad at all!


Ha!! I don't doubt you are.

I agree. If you last it out with only a few issues over years, that is a good match.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 5:25:02 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

157 shots, then 117? That's honestly not very many.


157, 177.

But if I understand Alfred correctly more devices fire but aren't reported, basically any device that has the range down to even machine guns. Need to pass a check of some sort I guess.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that every shot fired at the abstracted units counts toward the reported shots fired. Just last turn in one of my games I used a barge TF with ~20-some barges, 1 AM, and 1 SC and the enemy units at that base fired over 1100 shots. Obviously, my SC and AM were not able to suppress them to stop them from shooting, but that wasn't the point.

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 5:26:34 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Not really certain what Lokasenna's point is. But if he meant to say that 157, then 117 (sic) guns firing is not that heavy an expenditure, then he has misunderstood the supply consumption routines. He wouldn't be alone in that.

Alfred


I do realize that the simple act of them participating in the "combat" increases their supply consumption compared to if they hadn't been involved in the action (such as it was), yes.

I was more getting at the notion that with only that number of shots being fired means that the units are not being subjected to as much counter-battery fire (and therefore damage/disruption, although the reported casualty totals in the report are not exactly small) than if they had fired many more hundreds of shots. Obviously, this could be a result of the guns themselves being damaged or too disrupted to fire...

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 2/19/2016 6:28:53 PM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 5:36:14 PM   
Lowpe


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The obligatory look at Nagoya. Reinforcements arrived today are 18 more rapid fire 47mm cannons. I am getting to really like this guys. How lame is that?

Corp level HQ has retreated one hex to avoid high disruption. I also changed the commanding General. The Army level HQ(Eastern) is at Hammamatsu (I may move then further back), and General Defense is in Tokyo.

Tomorrow, 9 Armored Regiments will arrive. They have proved very resilient from naval and aerial bombing. I wish they all had Type 3 medium tanks but that is not the case. Yesterday, I made 3 Tankettes! The urban heavy terrain has really saved Japan here, and barring out an all out aerial campaign here I think I can hold for a while more. Perhaps forcing the Allies to strike north.




I have three mixed brigades on Resrve(no pursuit). One brigade of 150 AV, say bombed to 100effective AV, times 4 for terrain is whopping plus 400 before leadership prep is applied to prevent a 2-1. Pretty powerful if they make their roll.

Now, could several units all make the roll moving a potential 2-1 into a 1-2 and perhaps inflicting extra losses on the Allies?

I am going to try and move some high experience troops to Nagoya for reserve duty.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/19/2016 6:50:36 PM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 5:44:00 PM   
Lowpe


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We picked up about 140 raw AV from yesterday, despite three naval bombardments and over 2000 casualties.

Here is a look at the AA and ARM. I have moved all AA into reserve status to see if the disruption can be lowered. Not today, obviously. We will see what happens tomorrow.

I stopped building motorized support months ago, so that is why the TOE is low with the exception of one AA unit that has all but three guns disabled.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/19/2016 11:24:19 PM   
Lowpe


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I am putting another squadron of Myojo on kamikaze duty today. Their goal....sink the Yorktown!

I am certainly sending them to their deaths, but perhaps one or two might make a bomb run. Oscars on the escort.

I have had a strange thing occur on my ground reinforcement screen. It won't show troops arriving in 1 day....instead the report lists them as 2 days. Odd.

The shipyards built a 27 knot destroyer yesterday at Kobe. I slapped a Captain in and they are going in to raid the Allied base at flank speed, and if they survive they will return to Kobe and from there they will brave the trip to the Yellow Sea. I am hoping to torpedo a CVE.

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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 12:24:04 AM   
Lowpe


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A look at some DP guns...the highlighted 12cm 3yt dp gun is mostly at Yoko and Hiroshima in static units. Those two locations account for 150 guns. I keep trying to get the Allies to bomb Yoko more, but doesn't take my sacrificial offerings that often.

I recently put 40 of the 12 t3 cm AA guns, red outline,in Nagoya. I have them in reserve status, but I wonder given the Allies 2000+ AFVs present whether I should keep them in combat mode. So far I have not seen any reduction in disruption from reserve mode versus combat mode against naval bombardments.

I just noticed I have two of the interesting type 5 40mm AA guns on the map. They are at Chefoo, I wonder if I can get them to Honshu? That gun really intrigues me, as the Allies normally bomb at 6 to 7K.

The 8cm dp gun, in a lot of eng units, is slightly better than the 8cm dedicated AA gun. Interesting.






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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 1:33:49 PM   
Lowpe


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July 20 1944

The French are here...




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 1:37:32 PM   
Lowpe


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It is pretty lame for a 1944 attack.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 2:06:12 PM   
Lowpe


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The Steelhead had a banner day; surviving three distinct ASW TF attacks, and then sinking a SC and E before the ASW hunter killer groups managed to score 2 direct hits.

She is not sunk however.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 2:10:03 PM   
Lowpe


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The Allies are at 1.9861 to 1 as the bombers are concentrating on my Industry. The horror.

I reinforce Nagoya with 700 AV, and the Allies finally cut the railroad.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 2:12:10 PM   
Lowpe


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Allies pursue into Hanoi. I have 700AV in Hanoi, 400 digging in across the river but the Allies can go around.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 2:14:00 PM   
Lowpe


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Only two monster bombardments at Nagoya. The disruption is spreading now that the full division has been knocked down in AV.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/20/2016 2:17:38 PM   
Lowpe


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A lot of my Armor reinforcements are now on the west side of the island...with the rail line being cut. Allies only moved one unit in, and I have 1574 AV in x2 terrain. Dare I attack? Surely he has more troops arriving today.

Disappointed to see no disruption decrease in the AA,which is all in reserve mode. Tubes are repairing from disabled though.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:14:24 AM   
Lowpe


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A twin 25mm AA gun, on the oustskirts of runway near Nagoya where fighting has been heavy. Each magazine holds only 15 rounds, and the low ceiling and lack of penetration,really hamper the effectiveness of this gun.

4 JNAF support units at Nagoya feature the 25mm heavily. Based on the French Hotchkiss machine gun as does the 20mm version favored by the Army.






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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/21/2016 3:15:47 AM >

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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:45:02 AM   
Lowpe


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July 22, 1944

Army soldiers defy the Allies again, defending against two shock attacks in the far west. Oh,for supplies here.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:49:50 AM   
Lowpe


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East and West Honshu are linked again by rail. Nagoya's defenders climbing to 3000 AV.

Heavy bombing by the Allies goes unchallenged.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:51:28 AM   
Lowpe


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Nagoya's Defenders.




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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:53:37 AM   
Lowpe


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No disruption relief in AA units in reserve. Still being nailed by the daily heavy naval bombardments.






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RE: Disaster! - 2/21/2016 2:58:47 AM   
Lowpe


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Hoping for a little surprise here on the morrow.




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