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Combat Values - 2/25/2016 9:53:11 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		First impressions are good. I have to ask concerning objects like AFVs and landscape for example how abstract is it? I didn't see any reference to the different AFVs armor strength or gun variation strength.How do I determine possible outcome of one AFV vs another if I don't have a reference to their particular gun and armor strength? Landscape doesn't seem to have cover values in the manual also(wood, stone,light woods,heavy woods, etc.)I just skimmed through the manual and didn't see references to these type of details.
Post #: 1
RE: Combat Values - 2/25/2016 9:59:31 PM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		In Appendix 8 you will find the charts for vehicles and Terrain

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For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 2
RE: Combat Values - 2/25/2016 10:04:22 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		I see only Appendix A - D. I found the terrain but not for vehicles.

Ignore above. Looks like all is in Appendix B and C.

< Message edited by Gerry -- 2/25/2016 10:12:57 PM >

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 3
RE: Combat Values - 2/25/2016 10:25:06 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I noticed the Appendix before thanks. So when one AFV vs AFV I would have to have the Appendix handy to see the Caliber values.Correct?Is there a Caliber value difference between hard/soft target?About the AFV's armor how is that portrayed? It seems as though the AFVs are single unit and not platoon (from the scenarios I've played so far).Sorry for all the questions but I'd like to enjoy the learning scenarios.

< Message edited by Vin53 -- 2/25/2016 10:28:26 PM >

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 4
RE: Combat Values - 2/25/2016 10:27:42 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		IIRC Peter said armor has 8 armor factors. But we are not going to see combat values for any of the units. So we will have have to know the tank in real life I assume(assuming Peter has a good job modeling the armor, etc.).

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 5
RE: Combat Values - 2/25/2016 11:20:04 PM   
chrisleko

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 4/23/2015
Status: offline 		So if not combat values are ever going to be displayed, do we just have to know how things work in real life? I'm never going to be able to get a predicted chance to hit? Or knowledge of dice rolls? Or the odds of inflicting any wounds? That seems kind of troublesome to me. It's going to be really hard for me to play if everything is obfuscated under the hood.

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 6
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 1:32:00 AM   
Krys

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 2/25/2016
From: California
Status: offline 		I don't think we need specific combat values, but a general idea of range and approximate damage levels would be helpful. I'm not looking for counters with attack, defense, and range values on them like we had in Squad Leader, Panzer Blitz, Panzer Leader and that whole array of board games, but I don't think a table showing range and *approximate* effectiveness would be helpful.

For example, clearly we must presume that experienced veteran units must have less chance of breaking that brand new ones. An AFV like the Tiger must have a stronger attack strength and greater range than a Stuart. It would be nice to have some sort of data that we could use for general comparison purposes.

Almost every AFV is weaker on its sides and rear than from the front. Maybe just general data on side vs rear vs front could be provided?

I'm NOT looking for the mechanics of die roll results and what the % chance of a hit is in brush vs open vs wooden building, etc. but I kind of feel like an experienced company commander wouldn't have to wonder how far his men's machine gun can fire, or how close the T-34 needs to be in order to be a threat.

I LOVE the game structure and appearance. It's a super clean system and will hopefully be received by the wargame community with delight. I'm in awe of the efforts that Peter has put into this...and after a few (maybe a lot) of games, I'll figure it all out.

But -- would sure love to see some generic data info on the units, if possible.

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Post #: 7
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 1:47:52 AM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		So far the units are behaving accordingly.

(in reply to Krys)
Post #: 8
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 1:48:51 AM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krys

I don't think we need specific combat values, but a general idea of range and approximate damage levels would be helpful. I'm not looking for counters with attack, defense, and range values on them like we had in Squad Leader, Panzer Blitz, Panzer Leader and that whole array of board games, but I don't think a table showing range and *approximate* effectiveness would be helpful.

For example, clearly we must presume that experienced veteran units must have less chance of breaking that brand new ones. An AFV like the Tiger must have a stronger attack strength and greater range than a Stuart. It would be nice to have some sort of data that we could use for general comparison purposes.

Almost every AFV is weaker on its sides and rear than from the front. Maybe just general data on side vs rear vs front could be provided?

I'm NOT looking for the mechanics of die roll results and what the % chance of a hit is in brush vs open vs wooden building, etc. but I kind of feel like an experienced company commander wouldn't have to wonder how far his men's machine gun can fire, or how close the T-34 needs to be in order to be a threat.

I LOVE the game structure and appearance. It's a super clean system and will hopefully be received by the wargame community with delight. I'm in awe of the efforts that Peter has put into this...and after a few (maybe a lot) of games, I'll figure it all out.

But -- would sure love to see some generic data info on the units, if possible.



There is range button on the tool bar...the game system is inspired by ASL so that should tell how the system generally works.

(in reply to Krys)
Post #: 9
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 2:04:19 AM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		I think most know the difference between a Tiger and a Stuart. But what about a Pz IVA and Pz IVH etc. Or comparing tanks and TDs. Some general idea is needed I think.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 10
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 2:38:21 AM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		At least something added to the toolbar or hover over unit for "reference" of some sort of combat value.

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 11
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 4:05:34 AM   
Krys

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 2/25/2016
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vin53

At least something added to the toolbar or hover over unit for "reference" of some sort of combat value.


I like the idea of being able to get some data by hovering the mouse over a unit.

_____________________________

So many games...so little time...

"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 12
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 1:48:03 PM   
armonica

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		The lack of info on the units combat values is the only reason why I have'nt bought the game.
I think that for a tactical level game inspired from ASL that is really an odd choice, I really hope it will be somehow reconsidered.

(in reply to Krys)
Post #: 13
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 1:57:56 PM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline 		I agree with armonica.

(in reply to armonica)
Post #: 14
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 2:01:37 PM   
kylania

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: armonica

The lack of info on the units combat values is the only reason why I have'nt bought the game.
I think that for a tactical level game inspired from ASL that is really an odd choice, I really hope it will be somehow reconsidered.


Agreed! The inspiration for this game was able to convey all of that information at a glance within a 1/2" square counter with just a few numbers and symbols so surely a computer should be able to do the same and more. :)

(in reply to armonica)
Post #: 15
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 2:48:26 PM   
Angiel


Posts: 128
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Toscana Italy
Status: offline 		+ 1 armonica

I like the game but .... missing the "Core" of ASL: the risk assessment.
The risk assessment is an essential part of the game for grognard ASL.

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Post #: 16
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 4:48:36 PM   
proflui

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 12/12/2014
From: Hong Kong, now in Toronto
Status: offline 		I understand this game is inspire by ASL but the only ASL I have ever played is the starter kit #1 and the last time I played that game was about 10 years ago. So I do not remember how many hex a squad can move when using normal movement or double time. I cannot remember how different terrains affect movement cost also. This is a big problem because I cannot see how far a squad can move until it reach one hex before the last hex. This is not good because this situation did not occur when I played ASLSK as I can surely know how far I can reach in normal circumstance.

I agree to the CV problem also. For one instance I do not know how useless when I use one squad to shoot the defender hiding in a stone house and I continue to shoot for 3 turns until I know it is pretty useless. It just involves a lot of trial and error plus guessing.






(in reply to Angiel)
Post #: 17
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 5:02:41 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I agree more combat values available to view by the player is a positive thing and should be incorporated at some point in the future.

That being said with continued playing though I do see some of the underlining combat values that are important to the game like the stars for morale ,gun calibers, unit combat strength letter rating,veteran-conscript status and range of weapon to mention a few are all in there. They are just presented in a way on the map or counters in a slightly different way from what we may be accustomed to with game board counters.

I believe the game will only get better the more you play it and understand the system.With updates, mods and expansions it's well worth the purchase for counter based wargamers who enjoy the flavor of ASL/Squad Leader combat in their games.

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 18
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 5:19:24 PM   
blackcloud6


Posts: 489
Joined: 8/13/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I'm NOT looking for the mechanics of die roll results and what the % chance of a hit is in brush vs open vs wooden building, etc. but I kind of feel like an experienced company commander wouldn't have to wonder how far his men's machine gun can fire, or how close the T-34 needs to be in order to be a threat.


+1

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 19
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 6:11:35 PM   
chrisleko

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 4/23/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: proflui

I understand this game is inspire by ASL but the only ASL I have ever played is the starter kit #1 and the last time I played that game was about 10 years ago. So I do not remember how many hex a squad can move when using normal movement or double time. I cannot remember how different terrains affect movement cost also. This is a big problem because I cannot see how far a squad can move until it reach one hex before the last hex. This is not good because this situation did not occur when I played ASLSK as I can surely know how far I can reach in normal circumstance.

I agree to the CV problem also. For one instance I do not know how useless when I use one squad to shoot the defender hiding in a stone house and I continue to shoot for 3 turns until I know it is pretty useless. It just involves a lot of trial and error plus guessing.



I've never actually played ASL, and I'm really struggling because I have no idea how many movement points each unit gets or where I can look to find that info. I'd be happy with just a small number giving movement points on each counter (and an easier way to select counters). I'd even be happy with it showing up in the bottom bar for each hex.

I really like the bones of the game. The different phases are great, and I love the maps and map editor, but the game mechanics are really obtuse. I have no idea how far things can move, what sort of things affect my accuracy in combat, and how training and whatnot affect combat accuracy.

(in reply to proflui)
Post #: 20
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 6:16:11 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		Many people that play ASL etc. are OCD and like the detail. But other than that there is the issue for someone that has not played ASL. How would they have a clue as someone said whether to have a squad fire at say a wood building for a few turns before they realize that there was no hope of a result.

BTW is there long-range firepower implemented as in outside the normal range but not outside double the range. (With a German lmg I see white circles for the range but also smaller white squares reaching out a further 8 hexes so I assume this is long-range firepower but teh squads don't have this?) Thanks.

The game is very good and has the potential to be the most awesome wargame on the planet.

< Message edited by Gerry -- 2/26/2016 6:28:51 PM >

(in reply to chrisleko)
Post #: 21
RE: Combat Values - 2/26/2016 6:35:59 PM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		yes there is long range fire power, halved.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 22
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 1:41:32 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Not too concerned about guessing the armor values. However, I was surprised about the deadliness of LMGs. So now I know...

Or at least I think I know. Not having played ASL, I am in for some surprises.

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 23
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 1:55:52 AM   
Perelandra67

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/7/2015
Status: offline 		I agree that in order to generate good tactics, as Peter has said is his object for the game, the creators would be best served by giving more information about what we are shooting, and what we are shooting at. I basically just fire away without any idea if it will hit or not, or even if I can penetrate the armor, etc.

I will enjoy the game for what it is - it is lots of fun!! but it is not for serious gamers who want to plan out tactics based on actual values or who want to know why you hit or missed.

again, this is a very enjoyable game, but lacks depth that will make me want to replay and really get into.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 24
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 7:04:40 AM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		The other key missing data is AFV movement points. As it costs to stop and also to change VCA you don't know now if you have enough points to get to a certain hex and then do those things. You could end up with your AFV just dangling out there as a juicy target.

(in reply to Perelandra67)
Post #: 25
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 8:00:49 AM   
korposp

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		This game looks to me that you are just moving counters and firing and waiting what happened. Without combat values at the hand and knowing what actions cost how many points and what penalties you must count, also there is a no hit and damage probability info in the game or no values for its estimation, how can you plan your moves and develop some tactic? I am holding from buying and will wait if the game will be more transparent in near future.

< Message edited by korposp -- 2/27/2016 8:07:42 AM >

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 26
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 8:29:57 AM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		Well I figured out a way for movement - set up a test scenario (editor is easy to use). Results so far: StuG 42 = 13 MPs, Pz IIL = 18 MPs.

(in reply to korposp)
Post #: 27
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 9:14:37 AM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Good move

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 28
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 11:49:21 AM   
Meroka37

 

Posts: 770
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline 		I'm  counting all vehicles MPs in a flat map and filling an excell with all MP (so far I would say all MP assigned are = ASL...)

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Post #: 29
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 4:28:23 PM   
dje

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/7/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps I may offer assistance to some of those complaining about combat values, movement etc.

In the real world, I am a homicide detective. Using deductive reasoning and all available info I have come up with this conclusion.

A. If you look back to Peters posts circa 2006, the game then known as XASL looked exactly like ASL.

B. Somewhere along the line he changed the graphics from exact ASL counters to new counters and maps.

C. The game gets released with a mod (since when) that has the exact ASL maps and counters avail.

D. Somebody figures out that the numbers on the mod counters are exactly the same movement and fire values as ASL.

In conclusion, somewhere along the way Pete figured out or was told, he could not exactly replicate ASL, copyright infringe. etc. Pete changes these things but people not related to HIS project, release mods turning it essentially into ASL.

So therefore, ASL grognards, the game, counters etc. play almost exactly as ASL. You guys should be lovin' it.

If I a am wrong or my post reveals too much info, feel free to delete.

Love this game Pete, great work modders.


< Message edited by dje -- 2/27/2016 4:31:12 PM >

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