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- 5/11/2000 5:17:00 PM

von Lucke

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/8/2000
Status: offline

Ok, here's a thing or three I've noticed: 1. Just want to confirm / reinforce what was said earlier about the bottom armor vs. reverse-slope defense. Hit a Polish 7TP at a higher elevation with several rounds of 37mm at a range of 1 and was informed the under-armor was something like 466! Yikes! Is this something to do with the hull-down calculations due to height advantage? 2. Playing in the WWII Long Campaign as the Germans, bought a single off-board 105 batt (damn, but arty is expensive now!)Observer. Problem is, in the 20 or so turns I played the beginning scenario, every time I tried to request a fire mission, the 105 batt was unavailable! The arty was highlighted in red, and constantly "Out of Contact"! I'm playing with Command Control and Unit Comm turned off (just because I'm used to SP1 & 2), even so, the Observer was never more than 2 hexes from the A0 unit. So what was the problem? 3. Noticed that the random campaign mission generator (or whatever it's called) still likes to copy your force distribution, double it, and throw it back at you dressed up like the enemy (ala SP2). Is there some way to limit the AI's forces in Campaign mode? Just kinda annoying to always be out-numbered all the time --- especially now that it takes a lot more ammo to take out nme tanks. Which brings me to: 4. Noticed that my Pz III's, with height advantage (ie; hitting top armor), at minimum range (1-3), stationary, rarely achieve a kill --- yet the Polish 7TP's, moving, from a lower elevation, and medium range (6+), are popping me like bottles of Champagne at a Warsaw victory parade! Is there some element of AI fudging going on here? These two AFV's should be relatively even in ability... [This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 05-11-2000).]

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Post #: 31

- 5/11/2000 9:23:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

We did not want to give aircraft that big a role in the game. Aircraft were considered to be more of an incidental. That is why their cost is so high. I too am disappointed with the performance of aircraft once they are purchased, especially rocket firing Typhoons. As it is now, airpower is not to be feared. I hope to see that changed in a patch and I advocate that it will be. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 32

- 5/11/2000 9:30:00 PM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

Last night I decided to play a campaign. All of a sudden the game started crashing all the time. I mean once every minute or two. It seems like moving a unit was mostly what did it, but sometimes clicking on a unit would crash it. It also crashed twice when I reloaded and clicked on start turn. What is going on here? Afraid I can't provide too much info about my system, it's my girlfriends POS computer that her Dad made out of parts. Two other things: The sidebar seems to pick up terrain graphics as you move around, and the Polish flag is misaligned. The white part is slightly to the left of the red part.

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Post #: 33

- 5/11/2000 11:03:00 PM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I too am disappointed with the performance of aircraft once they are purchased, especially rocket firing Typhoons. As it is now, airpower is not to be feared. I hope to see that changed in a patch and I advocate that it will be.

I haven't managed to play that many missions as yet but in those games that ac were available they did enough damage for my taste.

If you can get a copy of 'Air International' magazine, june 1998 issue it has a good article about effectiveness of ground attack ac against tanks. Some examples: - after the battle of Falaise Gap 385 wrecked tanks and armoured vehicles were examined, only 13 of these bore evidence that they had been killed by air attack. -march 1945 2nd tactical air force analysed the effectiveness of rocket attacks and concluded that an 8-rocket attack against a tank had a 2% chance of scoring one hit. It's a five page article that examines also specific ac types like hurricane IID, HS-129 and JU 87G and basically ends up concluding that these ac were pretty much overhyped. Now based on this article ac should _not_ be very effective against armoured vehicles, against soft targets is another things. Perhaps someone who has access to more research material can comment on this? Voriax

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Post #: 34

- 5/11/2000 11:27:00 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

Hmmm, Everything I've every read said that aircraft were _very_ effective against tanks. That's why the Germans hated the jabos (spelling?) so much and could not move their armor formations on the West front during daylight hours. The battle of bulge (Wacht am Rheine) was timed for a period of poor weather to avoid allied aircraft, etc. Wittman, the German tank ace, was killed by a rocket. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 35

- 5/11/2000 11:42:00 PM

Mark_Ezra

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/6/2000
From: Trabuco Canyon, Ca....USA
Status: offline

Bug Report: When a unit on a stone bridge was destroyed so was the bridge icon. Access to bridge remained intact

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Post #: 36

- 5/11/2000 11:45:00 PM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

I thought Wittman was killed by Sherman Fireflies.

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Post #: 37

- 5/11/2000 11:58:00 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Seth: I thought Wittman was killed by Sherman Fireflies.

see http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm Until 1983, the destruction of Wittmann's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armored Division, 4th Canadian Armored Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmf�hrer Alfred G�nther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units, which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. Both versions were proven wrong in 1945, by Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine dec

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Post #: 38

- 5/12/2000 12:15:00 AM

Panther

Posts: 201
Joined: 4/19/2000
From: Dover,NH,USA
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The reason that the germans oppted for bad weather to move units on the west front in general were to conceal their movements end efforts. Especialy towards the end of the war. Air power was very good at detection of formations and their movements. Also air power is very good at destroying and/or scattering briefly soft tasrgets (trucks and men.) not so much hard targets etc tanks. If units traveled in convoys (which was the most effective way to move stuff of the same formation) there was a greater chance of hitting something that could possibly be destroyed or damaged. Since most fuel and ammo were delivered to a division by truck in convoys they would pose graeat targets even a lucky shot could have set them off. Considering that about 50% of the division is not the main fighting force loosing your support stuff can imobilize you fighting force very effectively. Since steel panthers is a company front type of simulation I do not think that air power should that power full againts front line hard targets etc (tanks.) Now if you have lots of truck to shoot at, your airfoce should be able to go to town.

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Post #: 39

- 5/12/2000 1:20:00 AM

3rd Recon

Posts: 44
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: ypsilanti, MI, USA
Status: offline

Paul- Trying to take out polish tanks is really hard in long campaign. I tryed a huge minefield and this is what I got: 1: Destroyed polish tanks had crews bail and then they cleared mines at end of turn. Do you think they would do that? 2: should crew moral be low after tank is destroyed? My crews wont retreat or rally and the poles tryed to advance and assualt my tanks(polish tank crews). not sure if this is a bug, but the mine thing really got to me. 3: what is the % chance of hitting a minefield of 1? I whatched polish tanks drive over 4-5 hexes with one mine each and nothing. thanks 3rd Recon

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Post #: 40

- 5/12/2000 1:58:00 AM

IivilSmai

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: jkl
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: If you have a question on whether to submit something as a Bug , or want clarification... post it here.

I'm trying to play a random campaign 41-47 with Germans confronting Americans, English and Russia, and I can't upgrade or fix my equipment after battles. The game just skips the fix-screen and goes straight to 'buy reinforcements'-screen. Also reinforcements for the first battle are carried to the following battles without extra cost!? I liked the way SPWW2 had a 'default' terrain option in preferences for random campaigns. Would it be too difficult to add to SPWAW? Great game, though I could use that functional random campaign...

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Post #: 41

- 5/12/2000 2:23:00 AM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

Larry, I read that site, and it seems pretty conclusive. I'm afraid the new 'Wittman's Last Stand' scenario will be rather boring. 1 Tiger vs. 1 Typhoon. I would also like to restate my problem with the constant crashing while playing campaigns (not scenarios apparently), for fear that it got lost in the airpower debate.

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Post #: 42

- 5/12/2000 3:03:00 AM

alexgariepy

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Great game guys, I'd like to report a bug. I was playing a Chinese civil war battle for the heck of it, and I noticed that when the Communist side takes an objective flag, the thing just dissappears. No flag. Well, it's still there, but my guess is there's no CC flag when taking objectives. *shrugs*

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Post #: 43

- 5/12/2000 3:03:00 AM

alexgariepy

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

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Post #: 44

- 5/12/2000 3:04:00 AM

alexgariepy

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Blasted thing made me post twice... weird.

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Post #: 45

- 5/12/2000 3:11:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Seth: Larry, I read that site, and it seems pretty conclusive. I'm afraid the new 'Wittman's Last Stand' scenario will be rather boring. 1 Tiger vs. 1 Typhoon. I would also like to restate my problem with the constant crashing while playing campaigns (not scenarios apparently), for fear that it got lost in the airpower debate.

So it seems that Wittman had only a 2% chance of being hit but rolled the dice badly. I am interested in learning more about the results of ground attack aircraft in WWII. Perhaps their value was more in busting enemy morale than in busting tanks. I've not found any good references through a WWW search. Can anyone suggest sources, hard or digital copy? ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 46

- 5/12/2000 3:53:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

The study I read ( I will try to find teh name - basically an analysis of groundattack aircraft from WW2 through the Arab Isreali wars) showed something on teh order of one vehicle (not tank but vehicle) killed on average per 5 sorties in WW2. From an SP standpoint that is pretty bad - only 1 in 5 planes you buy should kill something. From the German Army point of view that is STAGGERING as every DAY scores and scores (hundreds if an offensive was on) of ground attack sorties were typically flown. You do the math :-) Its the same with artillery, through the microscope of SP, each round may not do a whole lot (and we have significantly exagerrated its effect) but with thousands of shells lobbed across a front day after day (and 100's of thousnads during an offensive) the casualties add up... At the SP scale battalions of heavy artillery or squadrons of attack planes would simply prevent the scenario from starting becasue the attack would be disrupted and called off.

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Post #: 47

- 5/12/2000 5:43:00 AM

jackdaw

Posts: 3
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Tampere, Finland
Status: offline

Movement seems to be very slow and jerky compared to sp1/sp2 and sp3 somehow that red selected hex follow movement and slow it down. Also I cant see movement radius even it is selected?

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Post #: 48

- 5/12/2000 6:03:00 AM

alexgariepy

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by jackdaw: Movement seems to be very slow and jerky compared to sp1/sp2 and sp3 somehow that red selected hex follow movement and slow it down. Also I cant see movement radius even it is selected?

Oh, that. Check the preferences menu and fiddle with the 'delay' options. Bring it down a bit, particularly the 'movement delay' option. As for the movement radius, now that I can't explain. I just turned off 'command control' though and it works fine though.

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Post #: 49

- 5/12/2000 6:06:00 AM

Supervisor

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
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aDJUST THE MOVEMENT SETTING IN THE PREFERENCES SCREEN. NO RADIUS MEANS THAT COMMAND & CONTROL IS ON. (MANUAL Pg 28 & 35)

quote:

Originally posted by jackdaw: Movement seems to be very slow and jerky compared to sp1/sp2 and sp3 somehow that red selected hex follow movement and slow it down. Also I cant see movement radius even it is selected?

------------------ Grenadier SPWAW Beta Team

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Post #: 50

- 5/12/2000 6:42:00 AM

Kharan

Posts: 505
Joined: 5/9/2000
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All right. We played our first SPWaW match, hotseat as always. Thanks go to Paul who helped us getting the neutral zone bigger in random battles (Editor->Random->Deploy editor->change the lines->go save it in the Map editor->load it as a custom map in Battle->buy and deploy). That Deploy editor sure was hard to find :-) The match was Germans vs Russians, took about 8-10 hours straight, and yes, was very enjoyable. Some observations: Battle conditions said weather was a windstorm, and there was wind howling in the background. Nice :-) The command system took some learning, but was logical and added to the game. The new armor penetration system is great! And that penetration table is very useful. AA guns now do appropriate damage against infantry. A german tank crew which bailed out was shown as a halftrack. My SU-122 got his Main gun optics shot to pieces and his fire control dropped to zero. Yet he had good hit percentages and managed to blew up 2 Stug-IVs about 8 hexes away. Maybe I was just lucky ;-) A tank crew blew up a passing Stug with a grenade (that I know was very lucky). Yet the crew had no weapons at all in the unit status screen? My Sturmovik was shot down by a 88 (they can do both AA and AT now). It was still shown in Bombard screen, had 106 damage. Of course it was greyed out. My 12.7mm DSK HMG placed on a hill killed 30-40 men. German footmen and tanks just couln't spot it. Infantry (at least Bazookas) go into Buttoned frequently. Partisans are cheap and a nasty surprise in the right place. Do they always get to the destination? Alt-tabbing to Windows and back shows a black screen. Cursor movement reveals the screen under it. Just have to press e to go to ensyclopedia and then the screen returns. Now to sleep :-) [This message has been edited by Kharan (edited 05-12-2000).]

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Post #: 51

- 5/12/2000 7:22:00 AM

Desert Fox

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline

I know gliders are not supposed to be guaranteed a perfect landing, but I bought 4 German gliders just to see how they worked. Well, I was really really disappointed. It was a meeting engagement vs. the computer, clear weather at 1300 hours. I set the gliders to land at on a strategic hill in no mans land. I started my turn and watched them fly with the wind. They got to the hill and just kept flying, flying, flying, right into the lines of the British battalion. They unloaded and all my troops were summarily destroyed. Now, granted I didn't expect the gliders to be right on target, but they overshot by 20 hexes, that can't be right can it? And how come they can't carry a full squad inside? I tried to load in a FJ airborne squad and it told me they wouldn't all fit. Now that makes even less sense than the 20 hex overshoot. Next time I am buying transports.

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Post #: 52

- 5/12/2000 7:45:00 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by jackdaw: Movement seems to be very slow and jerky compared to sp1/sp2 and sp3 somehow that red selected hex follow movement and slow it down. Also I cant see movement radius even it is selected?

I too have slow and jerky movement,not smooth at all, try turning off command and control to see movement radius, even with vehicle movement set to xxx it is still slow and jerky

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Post #: 53

- 5/12/2000 7:47:00 AM

Desert Fox

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline

Here's something I just noticed. Why are fort class units not in the encyclopedia? Naval fortifications are, but not forts. I hope that is something that can be fixed.

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Post #: 54

- 5/12/2000 8:02:00 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: If you have a question on whether to submit something as a Bug , or want clarification... post it here.

First of all let me say great job guys!!! A few things ive noticed.... 1). the artillary sounds seem to go on to long and get washed together with other sounds, sometimes i still hear arty going after turn switches, this causes my sounds to skip, like a scratched record. also some aircraft sounds, had one shot down and on the ground and still heard MG fire and diving sound. 2). the sounds for tank main gun...there seem to be at least 3 sounds for a main gun, was this planned? sometimes you cant tell whats firing at you today a humbler sounded like a panther and vice versa fired a stug 3 times got 3 different sounds 3). british 50 cal fired at me and i got sound of brumbar from sp3,3 times in a row. 4).brit b26 is a truck icon. 5). the slow and jerky movement remAins even with movement setting to XXX red circle follows units, which seems to coz the jerkyness, this would be a killer with timed turns in an online game Great work tho guys!!! and thanks!! Alby:long time sp3 player [This message has been edited by Alby (edited 05-11-2000).]

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Post #: 55

- 5/12/2000 10:34:00 AM

alexgariepy

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by alexgariepy: Great game guys, I'd like to report a bug. I was playing a Chinese civil war battle for the heck of it, and I noticed that when the Communist side takes an objective flag, the thing just dissappears. No flag. Well, it's still there, but my guess is there's no CC flag when taking objectives. *shrugs*

I know I'm responding to myself, but it seems it's more than just Communist China that the flags all screwy. I just played games with Nationalist Spain, Republican Spain, and Bulgaria and their flags when they take an objective is much different then the one on the menu bar. (I see Bulgarian troops claiming land for Norway, it seems.) Maybe it's just my game, but if anyone else is having the same problem, please say so, that way I'm not the only one complaining over this.

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Post #: 56

- 5/12/2000 5:38:00 PM

grockall

Posts: 44
Joined: 4/19/2000
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I have also just had a Nationalist v Republican battle with flags for Communist China and Bulgaria.

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Post #: 57

- 5/12/2000 7:07:00 PM

Harry

Posts: 85
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Aachen, Germany
Status: offline

Comments to the AI: The AI do a bad job in placing his troops in delay - missions. Infantry is always placed dirctly behind the deployment line, most time without cover. 4-6 hexes behind he places his AT-Guns. In advance missions the AI don't use reccon units to check the area. Mapgenerator in Long Campaign: New terrain types like hedges, bocage, walls ... are not used.

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Post #: 58

- 5/12/2000 7:32:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Yeop , the AI is improved, but still fairly limited. AI programming takes LOTS of time, There is a reason CM has excellent AI, and been in development for years! We improved on what was in SP, but only can do so much. I personally play nearly exclusively by pbem where the AI is not an issue!

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Post #: 59

- 5/13/2000 7:33:00 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Desert Fox: I know gliders are not supposed to be guaranteed a perfect landing, but I bought 4 German gliders just to see how they worked. Well, I was really really disappointed. It was a meeting engagement vs. the computer, clear weather at 1300 hours. I set the gliders to land at on a strategic hill in no mans land. I started my turn and watched them fly with the wind. They got to the hill and just kept flying, flying, flying, right into the lines of the British battalion. They unloaded and all my troops were summarily destroyed. Now, granted I didn't expect the gliders to be right on target, but they overshot by 20 hexes, that can't be right can it? And how come they can't carry a full squad inside? I tried to load in a FJ airborne squad and it told me they wouldn't all fit. Now that makes even less sense than the 20 hex overshoot. Next time I am buying transports.

HA! at least your gliders landed,I got 6 and they all over shot and i heard crashing noise, Gliders looked intact but when i held mouse pointer over them it said they were destroyed doh!!!

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Post #: 60