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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 9:13:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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The north side of Thin Man. South to follow by separate post.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 9:17:50 PM   
Canoerebel


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The southern end of the operations.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 9:23:26 PM   
Canoerebel


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Many weeks ago, a savvy, veteran player noted that the Marshalls and Gilberts offered no great value from a strategic standpoint. I understood his point, but disagreed since they can be strategically important for a variety of reasons that I listed. But another reason is that any place on the map becomes vital if both sides are willing to fight there. This developing engagement elevates these islands to a significance far greater than their own value.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 10:31:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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What's the speed differential between MKB and KB? They don't mix well.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 10:35:06 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many weeks ago, a savvy, veteran player noted that the Marshalls and Gilberts offered no great value from a strategic standpoint. I understood his point, but disagreed since they can be strategically important for a variety of reasons that I listed. But another reason is that any place on the map becomes vital if both sides are willing to fight there. This developing engagement elevates these islands to a significance far greater than their own value.
They are important enough to keep many readers, and commentators, coming back regularly to follow the struggle for them. Can't get any more important than that.

Seriously, the value of any base is a matter of what someone is willing to commit to have possession. Since you and John are willing to commit so much of your available forces to possessing/denying the Marshalls the value is pretty high by definition.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/29/2016 11:55:23 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

What's the speed differential between MKB and KB? They don't mix well.

6 knots usually, it depends on however where he has put the Kaga.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 12:38:05 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Many weeks ago, a savvy, veteran player noted that the Marshalls and Gilberts offered no great value from a strategic standpoint. I understood his point, but disagreed since they can be strategically important for a variety of reasons that I listed. But another reason is that any place on the map becomes vital if both sides are willing to fight there. This developing engagement elevates these islands to a significance far greater than their own value.


Battle of Gettysburg was over a small town with a good road network or it was over two guys spoiling for a fight? Same with Guadalcanal.. not so much the locations as "I'm here....what are you going to do about it?"

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 12:45:21 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many weeks ago, a savvy, veteran player noted that the Marshalls and Gilberts offered no great value from a strategic standpoint. I understood his point, but disagreed since they can be strategically important for a variety of reasons that I listed. But another reason is that any place on the map becomes vital if both sides are willing to fight there. This developing engagement elevates these islands to a significance far greater than their own value.


Only thing is that I would have waited sixty more days before bringing on a general engagement. "I don't like to go into battle with one boot off." James Longstreet

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 2:24:45 AM   
Canoerebel


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Yes, Gettysburg and Guadalcanal are great examples.

crustton, I hear you. I could've waited another month for another CV and several CVEs. But I thought this was a good time and place to draw John into an environment that might not be friendly to him.

Thin Man is just getting underway, but on the ledger already:

Japanese Plusses: Downing perhaps as many as 100 aircraft (including many patrols downed); sinking one xAK, sinking about a half-dozen PT boats, and acting swiftly enough to prohibit the Allies from moving on Kwaj and Roi.
Allied Plusses: Sinking two subs, torpedoing CV Raikaku, damaging CL Nagara, downing perhaps 50 aircraft (mostly patrols), sinking three xAK and one SC, delivering some (a bare beginning) of much-needed supply to the Marshalls, mining tow ports, and seeing a situation unfold where, at least temporarily, Mini KB and Steroid KB are not in good positions to unite.

If this dance continues, who does it favor? Luck/fortune/fate could swing things either way - a sub hit on a carrier, etc. But time probably favors the Allies here. My ships are fresh, replenished, flush with fuel, and support ships are in place. Supply ships are in place to deliver supply when the danger lessens a bit. And I think the Allies are better positioned to place subs on likely vectors of egress - John's cripples almost have to retire to Truk. Mine have multiple vectors to clear the Marshalls.

The turn is off. The dance continues.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 6:29:33 AM   
Canoerebel


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8/23/43

Thin Man: The dance just became more complicated, with opportunities and perils abounding. John moved both of his carrier groups decisively eastward. He may be seeking a pincer movement, though I'm not sure how effective a pincer movement is when one side is Steroid and the other is Weak. Many times, I see through a glass darkly. There is a temptation to wonder if John has lost his mind. But from experience I know he knows what he's doing. So I'd better beware. But there are opportunities here. And perils.

For the first time in three or four turns, all Allied assets move where I think they're going to move. The main carrier TFs and amphib TFs all converge on the hex east of Mili, with and SC TF doing considerable damage to an IJN sub. Otherwise, this Allied armada isn't molested, but CAP knocks down 5 or 10 search aircraft.

Steroid KB moves 9 hexes NE (as you'll see on the map I'll post in a bit). I don't know if damaged Raikaku is present or not. Mini KB moves 9 hexes east (hey, what's with that? I thought Mini KB would be slower?) and ends up two hexes NW of Baker Island. This appears to be a pincer movement by John, as though he wants to move behind Death Star, between the Marshalls and Hawaii. But is forces are divided, and I just don't think he can create either a hammer and anvil situation or an embargo situation in which the Allied ships are rendered unable to return home (as they have enough fuel and replenishment ability to remain on station for quite some time to come. I'll discuss this more in the map.

OpsReport confirmed another AO sunk in the IO during that surface combat clash in January. John's lost a fair number of these ships, to the point I wonder if refueling presents any real problems for him. Since he's out there steaming around pretty far from home, I assume not. I can't make major decisions on guesswork like that, but I just wonder.

A patrolling 4EB reports hitting CL Nagara, which took a 1,000-pounder near Ailinglaplap yesterday.

No enemy combat TFs "inside" the Marshalls or in close proximity to the west. The TF nearing the dot hex to the north is now sitting atop it. But there was no FT invasion. I bet John's organizing for such.

Very little supply delivered today since most ships are disbanded in port until the coast is somewhat clear and the Allies can offer more sure protection. Some of the lagging TFs and others that departed Pearl belatedly have had to pull back close to Johnston with enemy carriers making such aggressive forward moves.

Troops at San Fran are nearly 100% prepped for Wake Island, but they are restricted, so I won't buy them unless it looks like Wake would take place before Carnival. A lot turns on the outcome of any pending carrier battle. If the Allies prevailed, suddenly lots of opportunities arise, so I want to be able to act on them. With troops prepping for many islands from the Marshalls to Truk, that's the case in CenPac. And an army is prepped to move against all the Japanese islands in the Aleutians. But if the Allies lose a carrier battle, then it's a much different ballgame. I believe the Aleutians are safe from meaningful counterattack, but not so the Marshalls. So, above all, I had better not lose a carrier battle. That's a higher priority at this point in the game than winning one.

Circus: Quiet on the front lines in the north, where there doesn't seem to be a major naval presence right now. John may be sending everything to CenPac seeking decisive battle. Again, fuel consumption is subtle issue. Lots of Allied activity further back as ships and troops are now mostly well-position for Operation Carnival. 5th Indian Division is 100% prepped for Amchitka.

Australia: Several recent SigInt reports that 2nd Tank Div. is inbound to Darwin. Almost certainly John is planning a campaign to retake Tennant Creek. That's a nice base to have, but the only real significance would be that any enemy troops that show up in a base hex are subject to 4EB attacks. Massed LBA against a tank division in the desert sounds good.

1st Marine Div.: The brave boys of Sumatra will reform at San Fran in less than a week. I'll split the unit into three parts and begin rebuilding immediately. It'll have low experience. But I think I'm going to prep it for Eniwetok. With a stacking limit of just 6k, an attack by 125 AV would probably be enough (assuming that the Allies control the sea and can bombard to their hearts desire - a formula that seems to doom any 6k island no matter how many forts and shore guns are present).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/30/2016 6:31:18 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 6:40:51 AM   
Canoerebel


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First, the strategic map to give an overview of carrier locations.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 6:54:06 AM   
Canoerebel


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Thin Man north.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 7:03:21 AM   
Canoerebel


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Thin Man south.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 7:36:16 AM   
Canoerebel


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Trying to see through this glass darkly, trying to learn to jitterbug while I'm on the dance floor, trying to come up with metaphors that fit like a glove, my best hunch thus far is this:

John sent that combat TF to dot hex north of Wotje in hopes that I'd see an opportunity to ambush. Then he deployed Steroid KB to handle such an ambush. If that's true, then John's moves today may not be as aggressive as I had thought at first. Yet, Steroid KB's position offers him several new opportunities. The glass is dark.

And this leaves me in the dark about Mini KB's mission. I don't have any hunches yet as to why she's out there in Indian Country.

I'm going to sleep on things, but I'm leaning towards maintaining a defensive posture, this time moving Death Star between Mili and Makin. I may also send some supply xAKs to Tarawa under the cover thereby provided.

Through a glass darkly.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 7:43:11 AM   
KenchiSulla


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He knows your position, right?

Or is he just hunting for shipping...

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 7:54:58 AM   
Canoerebel


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He knows the position of my carriers. He hasn't had particularly high detection levels, but each turn a half dozen or more of his patrol aircraft get shot down by CAP.

This turn, for instance, four carrier TFs show no detection, one shows 1-5, and the sixth shows 2-6. But he knows (and has known for five or six days) the location.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/30/2016 7:58:19 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 8:20:24 AM   
obvert


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Just nail the mini-nerd-with-glasses-KB he's hung out to dry and be done with it. Japan can't be so foolish with expensive assets.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 9:46:51 AM   
Encircled


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quote:

Just nail the mini-nerd-with-glasses-KB he's hung out to dry and be done with it. Japan can't be so foolish with expensive assets.


+ 1

Even on full speed the Main KB can't get down in time to support him

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 11:18:46 AM   
DW

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

Just nail the mini-nerd-with-glasses-KB he's hung out to dry and be done with it. Japan can't be so foolish with expensive assets.


+ 1

Even on full speed the Main KB can't get down in time to support him


+2

Isn't this the sort of setup that allied fan boys dream about? A chance to hit a portion of the enemy fleet with your main body, while his main body is too far away to interfere?


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 11:46:48 AM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DW


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

Just nail the mini-nerd-with-glasses-KB he's hung out to dry and be done with it. Japan can't be so foolish with expensive assets.


+ 1

Even on full speed the Main KB can't get down in time to support him


+2

Isn't this the sort of setup that allied fan boys dream about? A chance to hit a portion of the enemy fleet with your main body, while his main body is too far away to interfere?




+3 Several turns back John could have merged the main and mini KB into one hex by setting one or the other on a full speed run, now he does not have that option. If I was in your position I would take a full speed run at his mini KB, but of course you have to weight up the potential gains against losses if he sends the main KB south towards your transports....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 3:49:40 PM   
Canoerebel


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There is opportunity...there is danger.

There is a stunningly beautiful woman standing on the street corner....waving and calling, "Yoo hoo!"

Does she flatter only to deceive?

Should I remain focused on the mission...or should I swing for the fences?

Those questions made for a restless night. Then I awoke to a chorus of Forumites whipping me forward.

There were two course of action I was torn between.

Then the decision was made.

Then a thousands clicks followed.

And the turn is off to John.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 4:00:45 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There is opportunity...there is danger.

There is a stunningly beautiful woman standing on the street corner....waving and calling, "Yoo hoo!"

Does she flatter only to deceive?

Should I remain focused on the mission...or should I swing for the fences?

Those questions made for a restless night. Then I awoke to a chorus of Forumites whipping me forward.

There were two course of action I was torn between.

Then the decision was made.

Then a thousands clicks followed.

And the turn is off to John.


On these kind of tactical struggles....heed your mind and your playstyle (and your enemy's)over conventional wisdom offered by the board.

In chess the rook is worth more than the knight, but some players are very crafty with the knight and those players can punch above their weight by using an inferior piece to devastating effectiveness - despite the conventional wisdom.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 4:04:33 PM   
Canoerebel


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Thin Man South orders for August 24 turn.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 4:22:35 PM   
Lowpe


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How have you set up your CV fighters for CAP and for Escort?

Percentages, ranges, altitudes, etc. Are you using the F4Fs differently than the Hellcat? Hellcats for CAP only?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 4:34:04 PM   
Canoerebel


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All carrier fighters are set to two main CAP percentages: (1) Hellcats to 40% CAP (balance Escort), and (2) F4Fs (and 18 Martlets) to 50% CAP (balance Escort).

The F4Fs and Martlets are mainly set at 10k and 15k (with one or two set at 8k and probably one or two at 20k). Hellcats are mostly set at 15k and 20k.

On the island, Corsairs and P38s are mostly set to 25k to 35k. The Hellcats there are at 20k. These are mostly set to Escort, but the Lightnings are set at 20% LRCAP.

P40Ks and Kittyhawks at Tarawa are set from 8k to 15k and 50% CAP.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/30/2016 4:35:44 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 5:05:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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I have the turn back from John in record time. That was a sure indication that nothing big happened. And it didn't, though things are in a remarkably weird state now, partly due to some problems I'm having with the computer. I'll post about the turn later, but let me tell you about the problem to see if anybody knows what's going on.

My carriers have been set to follow a big combat TF (TF 402) and have done so from the day these ships left Pearl Harbor. Today, though, the carriers remained stationary (!), declining to follow TF 402. This left the carriers all in the hex east of Mili (they never moved!) while TF 402 is down near Tarawa.

I've never seen anything like this before (though, as I've posted in recent days, I have had some squirrely TF behavior).

It's unacceptable to have TFs in proximity to most of the Japanese navy and to not know when and if they'll follow orders.

TF 402 was set to steam south nine hexes, following an three-DD ASW TF. It did so, although it only made 5 of the expected 8 or 9 hexes. 402 was set to Mission Speed, Remain on Station, Direct/High.

The carriers were all set to follow TF 402. All set to Direct/High. Retirement allowed (with Tarawa set as Home Port, since that's where all the ships were supposed to end up, and since Tarawa offers CAP to damaged ships).

Also, there's a CL/DD force with the carriers. It too was assigned to follow TF 402 with the same settings, but it elected to remain immobilized, with the carriers.

I can't figure it out.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 5:09:54 PM   
Canoerebel


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TF 402 settings. These combat ships followed orders (though only making five hexes on the turn), but left the carriers behind.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 5:12:10 PM   
T Rav

 

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Just another lurker, but I want to say thank you for your great AAR. As well, I want to thank the forumites for their thoughts on how all this is shaping up. Simply fantastic. T Rav

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 5:12:31 PM   
Canoerebel


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Example of one of the carrier TFs that declined to follow TF 402. All carrier settings are the same, including Direct/High.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/30/2016 5:20:33 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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If you look at the Move:(m/c) stats you will see 6/3. That means at mission speed the TF will only move 6 hexes during the day or 3 hexes each phase. Mission speed is not full speed, which would be required to sail the distances you desired. Also, the 22 knot speed of the Idaho will prevent the rest of the ships from sailing at faster than 22 knots.

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