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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 10:17:19 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Mini KB indeed steamed north, nine more hexes, and is certain now to complete a JEG Stuart circumambulation.


He must be wondering where your supply train is, especially since the Kongos didn't flush any.....



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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 1:09:21 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

I completely understand why you'd be happy. You're accomplishing your goals while John sails around waving the flag and beats his shield. He needs the carnage, you don't. You stuck to your guns and kept the plan in mind. Your window of opportunity to catch his fleet is only getting bigger as time progresses.


Besides damaging one CV and accomplishing your goals John must have burnt 100,000 gallons of fuel. Every once of that had to be brought forward and now it all has to be replaces taking TK's and AK's away from bringing stuff out of the DEI and every once he brings forward does not go to the Home Islands to build stuff

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 1:48:04 PM   
Canoerebel


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A week ago, as the Allied TFs neared the Marshalls, John understandably deduced that the targets were Kwaj/Roi (or possibly Kausaie or Tabituea). Big force of carriers and combat ships and large number of merchantmen and support ships. What he had no way of knowing was that I had combat troops necessary for the mission "marooned" on Jaluit - and that I'd have to pick them up before I could proceed with the invasions, and that delivering supply was a higher priority than those invasions. That huge group of merchantmen was carrying no more than a Canadian brigade, two Canadian battalions, and one partial and one complete US RCT. Most of the merchants were loaded with nothing but supply.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 2:12:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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8/27/43

Thin Man: The Japanese carriers have (temporarily?) vanished from the screen. But my carrier TFs are likewise not showing any detection. So John's could be hiding in plain sight, or they might've retired to the west. Mini KB is 19 hexes NE of Death Star and 15 hexes SE of Wake Island, well into the curve that will take it back to Japanese dominated waters. What seems to be a powerful combat TF is 23 hexes SW of Mili (close to the Solomons). I think these are the Kongos. A big "DD" force is SW of Jaluit. In total it seems that the Kaigun remains spread out enough that I needn't fear a sudden convergence. That eans the Allies will proceed with their main mission.

All Thin Man combat troops have been successfully lifted from Jaluit and are unloading at Mili. In two days, they should be aboard APAs and prepared for amphibious ops (if the green light is given). There is one other important "troop retrieval" mission, but this one is unrelated to the invasions. 7th US Div. was broken up into many combat teams and used as necessary combat reserves to help take Maloelap, Majuro and Mili. These units are being retrieved to Mili and will then reload and return to Pearl. 7th Div. is fully prepped for Ponape.

I still have a lot of supply distribution to do, but some progress has been made. Mili has 35k and is in good shape. Jaluit's garrison is down to 10k and it has 20k supply, so it's substantially better now. But I need to offload 20 to 30k supply at Wotje, Maloelap, Ailiglaplap and Tarawa. Mines have been delivered to Mili and Maloelap (with subs about to drop them at Jaluit), but I hope the minelayers can reload at Jaluit (when and if there isn't real danger) and deliver another load or three. ACMs are already disbanded at Mili and Maloelap, but the five or six ACMs had to retire in the face of KB (they were making only 10 knots and lagged behind the other two by five or six hexes; that was enough to force them to go backwards, and then more backwards when Mini KB began its ride).

John has suddenly gotten pretty quiet with his combat ships and carriers. He may be replenishing/refueling in preparation for pouncing. The fact that NoPac is missing its combat ships leads me to believe John is concentrating an immense force in this theater. I have seen only part of this force to this point. I expect him to return to the Marshalls soon. In fact, he just went out of town (no turns until late Wednesday). I think he left the game a bit flummoxed. I bet he returns with renewed fire in his belly.

There is still the quesiton of whether the Allies will invade Roi and/or Kwaj. I'll have all the combat troops loaded and concentrated at Mili in two or three days and will make the decision then. If the coast is still clear, I'll probably proceed with one of the two, peferring to move sequentially so that bombardment TFs can really hammer one target. Both bases are overstacked and probably will be very tough against the assembled invasion forces.

If KB returns, I'll probably look for a chance to return to Pearl. If the Allies make it back there without suffering meaningful losses, from that point forward I won't feel the need to be quite so tentative with my carriers given incoming reinforcements.

I do need another five days or so to attend to supply offloading in the Marshalls. I'm only addressing a base or two each day, and with but a modest numbers of ships at each exposed island. I don't want an enemy combat TF to overwhelm a significant portion of my loaded supply in one pouncing attack.

Circus: Quiet up here. An ACM disbanded at Adak to tend to 120 mines. Supply is abundant from Umnak back to Anchorage. Fuel is abundant at Kodiak and now there is some at Dutch Harbor. Adak has plenty of supply but not abundant levels. Ulak is getting low. LSTs are en route.

Reinforcements: Cowpens arrived in 12 days; Bunker Hill in 13. Both should be part of the next op, whether it's NoPac or CenPac. 1st Marine Div. arrives at San Fran in four days, but it will take months to rebuild.

hichever op is next, Allied troops will be mostly fully prepped (a few exceptions for those Thin Man troops that have been aboard ships for weeks now).



< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/2/2016 3:39:06 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 2:17:38 PM   
Canoerebel


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Thin Man on August 27.




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 4:05:17 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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What are your reload factors at Jaluit? Can they do a mine reload?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 4:10:28 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

What are your reload factors at Jaluit? Can they do a mine reload?


I have never been able to figure out mine reloads.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 4:22:59 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

What are your reload factors at Jaluit? Can they do a mine reload?


I have never been able to figure out mine reloads.


What is hard about them. It is right in the appendix.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 4:23:44 PM   
Canoerebel


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Jaluit has a level four port and a USN base force with naval support. I think when I put an AE or AKE there that it will allow me to replenish CM and DM mine loads. This is based upon the fact that I was able to reload mines at Sabang (at level one and level two) with AKE/AK and naval support. So, I have the advantage of a bigger port (but I don't have nearly as much naval support, which is what makes me a bit uncertain). I've tried loading mines at Mili, which has AE/AKE but is only level one without naval support, and it hasn't worked.

As you can see, I'm doing this more from a general feel of the factors that aid in minelayer replenishment rather than detailed knowledge that would allow me to say for certain.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 5:08:34 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

Pretty sure that all the JP 28 pt & 19pt tankers can convert to AO.

One thing I did not see mentioned - I don't think the conversion to AO brings an increase in speed. So while he has more AOs they will be slow and not suitable for operations near the combat area. They will have to hang back at least two days steaming from Allied interdiction. This could be why KB has disappeared from the area for the moment - cannot refuel near the front.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 5:11:32 PM   
Canoerebel


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A word about commander ratings.

As you can tell, I'm having alot of fun in this this match, and overall I am pleased with where things stand as of August 1943 and how Thin Man (a weird-looking but important operation) is going thus far.

But I am aware that there are certain players that would have jumped on the chance to strike Mini KB. Certain players would have enjoyed the challenge of using flank speed to deal a decisive blow. Other players (me, with hand raised) erred on the side of not taking the chance, weighing factors and concluding there was too great to the merchantmen).

Player aggression ranges from timid to reckless, as do commander ratings in the game.

I think the situation with Fletcher, Turner, Ghormley and Vandegrift at Guadalcanal had to be one of the most interesting studies in commander personalities and decision making of the Pacific War. I bet there are some fascinating doctoral theses that deal with that in amazing detail.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 5:30:05 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A word about commander ratings.

As you can tell, I'm having alot of fun in this this match, and overall I am pleased with where things stand as of August 1943 and how Thin Man (a weird-looking but important operation) is going thus far.

But I am aware that there are certain players that would have jumped on the chance to strike Mini KB. Certain players would have enjoyed the challenge of using flank speed to deal a decisive blow. Other players (me, with hand raised) erred on the side of not taking the chance, weighing factors and concluding there was too great to the merchantmen).

Player aggression ranges from timid to reckless, as do commander ratings in the game.

I think the situation with Fletcher, Turner, Ghormley and Vandegrift at Guadalcanal had to be one of the most interesting studies in commander personalities and decision making of the Pacific War. I bet there are some fascinating doctoral theses that deal with that in amazing detail.


Good observation! I have the impression that interference from Washington also coloured some of the decisions made.
Fletcher was under pressure not to risk his carriers too much.
Ghormley was handed an operation (Shoestring) triggered at least three months ahead of schedule with lack of everything, so he had to devote far too much time to logistics.
Turner's landing force had suffered losses from Betty strikes and after the Battle of Savo Island he had no way of knowing if the IJN would return for the transports, which were also scarce and precious to Washington. When Fletcher withdrew to replenish he had to take his transports with him.
Vandegrift, to his credit, took an offensive posture whenever he saw a weakness in Japanese lines, but initially he had little to work with.

The game does a great job recreating the background and dynamics of the Guadalcanal situation.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 6:01:36 PM   
Mike McCreery


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I believe that the decision not to attack is often more important for the allied player in this game than a knee jerk reaction. Certainly through 1942 and 1/2 of 1943 at least.

You may want to ask NJP how many times I saved my butt by not chasing after seemingly helpless merchants.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 6:14:06 PM   
Lowpe


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Does pressure from Washington equate to the peanut gallery here?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 9:35:20 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Does pressure from Washington equate to the peanut gallery here?

In which case JIII is being showered with compliments for stopping an invasion of Truk & Saipan, only giving away a few sand bars which will become a death trap for the Anericans!!!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 10:12:57 PM   
Canoerebel


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This "through the glass darkly" thing probably works both ways. John is presented with a great deal of data as Operation Thin Man unfolds (ships, ships, ships, planes, movement, where are they going, what are they doing). He is probably greatly in the dark as to what was going on. He might draw the conclusion that he stopped invasions, stymied the Allies, and left me looking gangly and awkward. Those would be reasonable deductions given the information presented.

From my perspective, the Operation is proceeding nicely (with the added benefit of seeing the Kaigun running around expending fuel) with supply delivery and excess troop extraction well underway; with the two amphbious elements still on the table, and with the Allied naval OOB thus far intact (oh, that this remains so). And with the overspreading canopy that the Allied naval OOB is about to increase substantially, making future (near future) operations have a decidedly different balance of power.

So I fully understand if John is feeling awesome at the moment (hey, he just took his cavalry division on a gallop around the Army of the Potomoc, generating favorable press and making General Meade look clumsy). That's exactly the feeling I'd have in his place.

Ah, but I know better. :)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 10:18:33 PM   
crsutton


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It is like watching "Game of Thrones." I mean, when will the f**king thing ever come to a conclusion?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 10:43:54 PM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

It is like watching "Game of Thrones." I mean, when will the f**king thing ever come to a conclusion?


Jon Snow is alive! Alive I tell thee!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 10:46:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 11:37:02 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)


The books are better. Truly dark medival fantasy series.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/2/2016 11:39:44 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)

Its the modern equivalent of Dallas or Denver Clan in a fantasy world. Entertaing sure but you dont miss anything.

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 5/2/2016 11:41:57 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 12:10:29 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)

Its the modern equivalent of Dallas or Denver Clan in a fantasy world. Entertaing sure but you dont miss anything.

That one I saw when it premiered before realizing it was just a soap opera.

My sister watched All My Children (daytime soap opera in USA), started working, got married, worked, got laid off & had kids then. Looked at it again and found after 17 years she had not missed anything!!

< Message edited by witpqs -- 5/3/2016 12:12:04 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 12:40:10 AM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)

Its the modern equivalent of Dallas or Denver Clan in a fantasy world. Entertaing sure but you dont miss anything.

That one I saw when it premiered before realizing it was just a soap opera.

My sister watched All My Children (daytime soap opera in USA), started working, got married, worked, got laid off & had kids then. Looked at it again and found after 17 years she had not missed anything!!


At some point in those 2 decades they probably started using the original script with the names changed ;]

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 2:43:17 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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Regarding "Thrones," I stopped reading sometime during the third or fourth book. I like my good vs. evil stories simple, and Martin killed the only sympathetic, honorable character in the first book. And don't get me started on the economy in that Hobbesian wasteland--there's zero economic basis for all of those castles (especially with a seven-year winter). Regarding that continent to the east, though, bits of it are somewhat civilized and I'd be emigrating there posthaste.

[Time to get another off-topic discussion going to confuse the enemy. ]

Back to the game, I think it was a good move not to go off-mission and chase after the mini-KB. There will be time enough later to chip away at his naval forces.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 5:30:12 AM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

The books are better. Truly dark medival fantasy series.
My old tired eyes read this a "The boobs are better." Strangely enough both are true.

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Never trust a man who's ass is wider than his shoulders.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 5:45:15 AM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A word about commander ratings.

As you can tell, I'm having alot of fun in this this match, and overall I am pleased with where things stand as of August 1943 and how Thin Man (a weird-looking but important operation) is going thus far.

But I am aware that there are certain players that would have jumped on the chance to strike Mini KB. Certain players would have enjoyed the challenge of using flank speed to deal a decisive blow. Other players (me, with hand raised) erred on the side of not taking the chance, weighing factors and concluding there was too great to the merchantmen).

Player aggression ranges from timid to reckless, as do commander ratings in the game.

I think the situation with Fletcher, Turner, Ghormley and Vandegrift at Guadalcanal had to be one of the most interesting studies in commander personalities and decision making of the Pacific War. I bet there are some fascinating doctoral theses that deal with that in amazing detail.
Timing is also a key factor in the success or failure of aggressive action. In hindsight you likely could have been successful seeking to destroy the mini-KB if you had done so immediately upon the Death Star's arrival in the Marshalls knowing that the Japanese would not try to link the mini-KB with the KB ouch, what a run on sentence). You did not know that the Japanese would allow the mini-KB to operate outside support range of the KB, and by the time you could reasonably conclude the opportunity was there the chances for success were based on guessing where the mini-KB would go.

Additionally, aggressiveness is a matter of perspective. I think the operation to resupply the Marshalls, reposition troops and invade strongly defended bases is plenty aggressive. Some are just not satisfied it was aggressive enough. I find it amusing they could question you aggressiveness after your invasion of Sumatra, and the fact you are recovering from the losses sustained in that campaign.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 7:15:05 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A word about commander ratings.

As you can tell, I'm having alot of fun in this this match, and overall I am pleased with where things stand as of August 1943 and how Thin Man (a weird-looking but important operation) is going thus far.

But I am aware that there are certain players that would have jumped on the chance to strike Mini KB. Certain players would have enjoyed the challenge of using flank speed to deal a decisive blow. Other players (me, with hand raised) erred on the side of not taking the chance, weighing factors and concluding there was too great to the merchantmen).

Player aggression ranges from timid to reckless, as do commander ratings in the game.

I think the situation with Fletcher, Turner, Ghormley and Vandegrift at Guadalcanal had to be one of the most interesting studies in commander personalities and decision making of the Pacific War. I bet there are some fascinating doctoral theses that deal with that in amazing detail.


While I am one of the "certain players" who strongly advocated for hitting the KB I do completely understand your situation. The players know their game and their opponent better than we ever can from the center field bleachers. While I am yelling for the steal to third and then the suicide squeeze you're calmly hitting a deep sac fly that achieves nearly as much without half of the danger (or excitement). I get that.

This was also set up by John for some odd reason to draw you away. I personally consider that kind of dangling of very important IJN assets a bit of a mistake in this case because the USN could've taken them all down with little trouble. Maybe he would've got the bag of transports and an important hit on the CVs from a stray DB, and maybe that would've led to a CV clash where he had an advantage. Who knows?

Playing Japan again I realize even more the different kinds of mindsets needed to play both sides. I loved the leisurely pace of the Allies, the ability to make unusual and unpredictable decisions, to lead the dance after 42, and through a spin or dip to keep your partner just that much more on their toes. In this one I understand your view that you lead this dance, and I agree. You have a much more balanced approach and this op shows that you will also play the psychological game that will lead your opponent most likely to do something rash again.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 8:22:59 AM   
Encircled


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Ditto

You could have attacked the Mini-KB, but you've have done what you had to do, with minimal losses whilst John has burned a shed load of fuel.

He's used flank speed as well I think, so his systems damage will need some repair time, plus the torp hit on a fleet CV

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 9:30:09 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

So I fully understand if John is feeling awesome at the moment (hey, he just took his cavalry division on a gallop around the Army of the Potomoc, generating favorable press and making General Meade look clumsy). That's exactly the feeling I'd have in his place.

It reminds me of the expression Pigeon Chess:
" it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/3/2016 10:29:13 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've never watched that show. Heck, until about three weeks ago I thought it was the name of a video game. See, I don't have television or cable or satellite etc., so I'm out of touch and don't have my finger on the pulse of popular culture.

But I do get crusutton's excellent application of the simile. :)

Its the modern equivalent of Dallas or Denver Clan in a fantasy world. Entertaing sure but you dont miss anything.

That one I saw when it premiered before realizing it was just a soap opera.

My sister watched All My Children (daytime soap opera in USA), started working, got married, worked, got laid off & had kids then. Looked at it again and found after 17 years she had not missed anything!!

*sigh* I really envy you. I would have loved to live in the 60/70s :(

_____________________________



(in reply to witpqs)
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