Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer


Turn ends on a 1.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Ortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

B) Some what different. More options for the Allies.
A) Slow Garrison at the German border , empty hexes for reserves units , mobile units at the Belgian border, cost clear for CW units. "Standard" ex

quote:

I think this setup has to few units on the Italian border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

B) Some what different. More options for the Allies.
A) Slow Garrisons at the German border , empty hexes for reserves units , mobile units at the Belgian border, cost clear for CW units. "Standard" ex

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

quote:

I think this setup has to few units on the Italian border.

What are the Italians going to do? The war is in the north, the Italians have slow going through Alpine passes and terrain, and then what?...outflank the Germans in Lyons and Vichy? (by that time the Germans have already advanced to Paris...go after Marseilles? (the French fleet need not be based there forever)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Probably my opinions are not welcomed:
I don't see why?

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above The next time you play the Allies, try it. You might be surprised.
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!See above. Too many units vs the Italians causes these sorts of problems. The 4-1 GAR should be there.
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.The blunder with the Polish was in not getting the surprise...notice I didn't even mention that (I was giving the Allies a break on that one).
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.I'm saying the Germans would not have taken their air out, but Gort, et al can also go into a lower box with fighter protection besides the fleet protection. It was the Allies that won the initial die roll. The Allies were hungry to get at the German units poised for invasion. If I had taken over the Allied decision making at that point I would have declined combat, and that is not at all 20/20 hindsight. Landing Gort (plus) safely is far more important than stopping an invasion. If I sail an HQ into a sea area, they are landing THAT impulse. If the Allies had fighter protection, plus maybe a bomber as well this might have played out differently. I have no problem with the Allies trying to stop the invasion...but don't do both...wait on Gort...too much combat potential. Too much movement and concern in Poland...stack Lodz and Warsaw and just let it be. Get your pilots and what ever else...don't let Poland take away from the main focal point. I normally have Gort and Wavell in France and max out the commitment.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next. Examples: CW should have moved out of Antwerp and westward as the French line was retreating. CW would have held the northern two hexes of the Allied line. The Maginot east of Metz should have been abandoned sooner with two units in Metz. I don't like flipping both HQ's for re-orging French units...the re-orging HQ could be put into a hex adjacent to the Belgian border prior to help stop the Germans from exploiting through the line after attack. I would rather have had the obvious hex to be attacked with one unit in it and another unit behind to block exploitation. It didn't seem to me that the French were getting units up north where they were needed quickly enough (starting off with more mass north rather than south would alleviate that problem). How many French units outside of France made it into France?

warspite1

Responses in red. Responses in blue. I know what ever I write here will be looked at as 20/20 hindsight, but I'm just going with the concepts and playing style my board game group goes with, and one of our group is on the development group.

quote:

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons. I disagree for the reasons mentioned above 2. Arty in Maginot hex??? Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there! 3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels. The wisdom of this I can agree with. Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies. There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one. The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air). That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ. The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn. I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I wish there was a way for the author of this thread to eliminate some of the funny ha ha stuff over time...with all that stuff in there it makes it tedious to go back and look at important stuff.

Probably my opinions are not welcomed, but I cant help myself:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above The next time you play the Allies, try it. You might be surprised.
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!See above. Too many units vs the Italians causes these sorts of problems. The 4-1 GAR should be there.
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.The blunder with the Polish was in not getting the surprise...notice I didn't even mention that (I was giving the Allies a break on that one).
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.I'm saying the Germans would not have taken their air out, but Gort, et al can also go into a lower box with fighter protection besides the fleet protection. It was the Allies that won the initial die roll. The Allies were hungry to get at the German units poised for invasion. If I had taken over the Allied decision making at that point I would have declined combat, and that is not at all 20/20 hindsight. Landing Gort (plus) safely is far more important than stopping an invasion. If I sail an HQ into a sea area, they are landing THAT impulse. If the Allies had fighter protection, plus maybe a bomber as well this might have played out differently. I have no problem with the Allies trying to stop the invasion...but don't do both...wait on Gort...too much combat potential. Too much movement and concern in Poland...stack Lodz and Warsaw and just let it be. Get your pilots and what ever else...don't let Poland take away from the main focal point. I normally have Gort and Wavell in France and max out the commitment.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next. Examples: CW should have moved out of Antwerp and westward as the French line was retreating. CW would have held the northern two hexes of the Allied line. The Maginot east of Metz should have been abandoned sooner with two units in Metz. I don't like flipping both HQ's for re-orging French units...the re-orging HQ could be put into a hex adjacent to the Belgian border prior to help stop the Germans from exploiting through the line after attack. I would rather have had the obvious hex to be attacked with one unit in it and another unit behind to block exploitation. It didn't seem to me that the French were getting units up north where they were needed quickly enough (starting off with more mass north rather than south would alleviate that problem). How many French units outside of France made it into France?

warspite1

Responses in red. Responses in blue. I know what ever I write here will be looked at as 20/20 hindsight, but I'm just going with the concepts and playing style my board game group goes with, and one of our group is on the development group.

Not whatever you write - I accept the better defence of Belgium through a revised French set up (through better placement but not denuding the Alps of defence and allowing the Italians a freebie walk-in). However, I think the majority of what you say is with the benefit of hindsight - but that's fine. If this was a dull game with limited replayability we wouldn't be having these debates.

The hindsight is particularly marked with regard to the weather. Playing the % each impulse we were not unreasonably expecting a change of luck. That thinking does affect troop dispositions and its only human. They say in WIF if you can't afford the worst result don't attack. But that is fine in theory and impossible in practice - well ditto playing every impulse as though the turn will never end and next one is going to be Fine (and the opposite if the attacker). Vacating Antwerp is great (even at a cost of other moves) if we know what is happening turnwise. But then moving them out of the city and vulnerable to a blitz attack with no retreat (Gort had not landed in France) would have been criticised sharply.

The idea that the CW should allow a free invasion of Rotterdam is imo nonsense - and again would be roundly criticised if the Germans then benefited from that freebie.

And I don't know how you KNOW the Germans would not have flown into the North Sea - maybe that was something you discussed on the Axis thread? If so then that is surprising considering the German fighter flew to the North Sea on the first impulse. The Germans had units to defend as well as CW to attack.

You also mention how many units outside France made it to Metropolitan France. Well as you know if playing with oil then this strategy is close to a must if only because of the problem with a lack of oil. There were only two turns anyway, but how many units did you think the French could repatriate with such limited oil stocks?

We will clearly have to agree to disagree on much of this - particularly the Italian set up and in trying to make the Germans pay in Poland to partially offset what was happening in France. Of course we lost out on both because even once the weather changed (AFTER the damage was done) the Axis luck on land throws - which had been as rubbish as the Allies - changed for the better.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/10/2016 7:19:46 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Ok, you wont believe there is no hindsight about this on my part. Then I highly recommend you test (as you did with Fall Gelb) various set ups...Brian and Pesk offered some ideas as well.

You are playing with defensive shore bombardment, right? If so, the Germans would not have attacked the British stack at um, well, Dunkirk See Page 22 post 632 (pre move positions), and Page 23 post 663 (post move positions)...the amount of effort expended on that stack would have been tremendous (air to air combats, low odds, etc...)...for a hex that does not get them closer to Paris. What it does for France, is it makes them available for when Gort does get there and they can move around into defensive positions near Paris. Instead, those assets are trapped in Antwerp doing no good.

Just to clear some things/misperceptions up:

1. The only reason I suggested allowing a free invasion of Rotterdam is because you had Gort out there. I would not have had Gort out there if I was hunting the invasion force (And yes, I would have hunted the invasion force). Then later (after either the invasion happened, or the invasion force is sunk) move Gort+ out there with fighter air cover (1 box? if no fighter 4+ range).

2. Concerning German air in the North Sea: Just the opposite what you wrote...I would have assumed that the Germans WOULD have flown out there, and that they ARE there...I'm not sure why you write I would think they would not? Maybe this is a miscommunication.

3. Top priority naval with the French is to get as many units into France proper...if that means they cant make some other naval moves because of oil, oh well.

I think we can agree on something?:

French front line vs Germany is top priority over everything else. All moves and assets (CW and French) prioritized here even at the expense of Poland, colonies, etc... and naval moves (opportunities) other than TRS bringing units into France.


When you have time and desire, I highly recommend you wargame alternative French set ups and following moves...S/O'39 to J/A'40. You can use the known disaster of weather and turn ends as happened in this AAR, or random for the lack of knowledge of what happens next. I think you might be surprised.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805